developing dynamic- sets/reps

[cailifo]

in the book it says (forgive my memory) the max range of motion (rom) is reached between 10-15 reps. but for developing (rather than maintaining) dynamic flexibility around 30 repetitions are needed (at max rom?).

so does that mean that my first set of 10 or so should be the gradual lead up to the max range- starting from waist high. but then the next set or two should all be done at that max rom, rather than starting low again? that way i'm developing dynamic flexibility by doing many reps at the max rom.

thats the way i've understood it but i've been starting low at the beginning of every set and working it up.

[ash_leto]

All I would say is play it by ear. You won't know until you try.

I've experimented with leg swings and I tried doing sets of 30 reps, 2 sets of 15, 4 sets of 10 etc etc.

In the end I found it best to do 2 sets of 10 in the morning and 2 sets of 10 at night followed by relaxed stretches. I always try to push each one (right from the first one) to the max ROM and as my muscles become more used to it the swings get higher. Aim for a point on the ceiling and if your foot reaches it in the swing pick a higher point and so on.

Trial and error is the only way as we're all indviduals and function differently and respond in different ways to the same exercise.

[cailifo]

trial and error is what i've been doing since no one else replied earlier. lol

i was doing 2 sets of 15 when i started but found that i can reach my max rom with less and so its too much for one set. so i decreased the number of reps to 10 per set.

right now i'm doing 4 sets of 10 reps in the morning, and in the evening the same followed by relaxed stretches.

i find this better because i dont reach max so quickly. so i can increase the height and speed sooner in a set. also, as the book said 30 to 40 reps per workout are best for developing dynamic flexibility in the hips. so i'm going with the most that would be beneficial.

but also because it says not to do too many at max rom, since i reach max rom within the first set or two, i shouldnt try 30 or more at full rom because that would set an unnecessary memory and hamper progress beyond that.

so i'm starting at waist height for each set. but with lower numbers of reps i can increase faster.

feels good so far.

[Caleb]

Hi,

I would also like to get an answer about this, do I increase ROM during a set, or between sets? (that is, first set at waist level, second set at chest level, etc...)

Thanks

[CSta]

during.

[Caleb]

during.

Thanks CSta. But does every set start at the same level and slowly increases to the full ROM or once I reach the full ROM I don't have to start low and build up?

[CSta]

Don't restart the range with each set. Each next set begins where the last one left off.

[Caleb]

Thanks again But even more questions keep creeping up

The book says on p. 14 that you should not do many more repetitions once you reach the maximal ROM in any direction so as not to set the muscle memory to this position.

After reaching the maximal range of motion in a joint in any direction of movement, you should not do many more repetitions of this movement in a given workout. Even if you can maintain your current maximal range of motion over many repetitions, you will set an unnecessary solid memory of the range of these movements. You will then have to overcome these memories in order to make further progress.

And then on p. 38 it says:

Maximal ROM in any given direction of hip movements is reached after 10-15 leg raises in a given direction; for developing flexibility the total numbers of repetitions recommended per workout are 30-40 for flexion-extension of the thigh and the same for abduction of the the thigh; for maintainig flexibility 15-25 repetitions of leg raises per workout are enough.

On p.34 it does say that: "Eventually one set of twelve repetitions in each direction, per leg, will be enough.".

1. When is "eventually"? When my maximal ROM is at an acceptable level for me? (that is, it's nearing the level of my passive flexibility)

2. If my current max ROM is reached after 2 sets of 10 (20 reps), yet I'm trying to develop flexibility (that is, I want me leg to go higher then the current maximal ROM), do I do 10-20 more at my currently max ROM as it says on p.38?

[CSta]

Your question: "When is 'eventually'? When my maximal ROM is at an acceptable level for me? (that is, it's nearing the level of my passive flexibility)"

No. Kurz's point,I believe, goes something like this. Let's say you have decided to begin a long-term exercise plan and your plan includes dynamic leg swings, which you've never performed before. In the first few weeks of training, you will notice that, when you perform dynamic leg swings, it takes you many repetitions before you reach the point where you feel you cannot swing your legs any higher. In other words, it will take many repetitions to acheive your maximum range of motion where "maximum range of motion" means your maximum range of motion at this stage in your training. As the weeks go by, the number of repetitions it takes before you first achieve that maximum range of motion will decline. So, for example, in weeks 1 and 2, it might take 40 leg swings in one direction before you feel your leg cannot go any higher on that particular day; but in weeks 3 and 4, it only takes 30 repetitions before you hit that point. Kurz says, eventually it will only take 12 leg swings in one direction before you first acheive your maximum range of motion for your then current level of condition.

Now, even though you reach the point where it only takes 12 reps to acheive your maximum range of motion for your then current level of condition, you might still have not achieved the maximum range of motion possible given your level of passive flexibility. In other words, you might still be able to materially reduce the gap between your current maximum dynamic range of motion and your current maximum passive range of motion. On page 31, Kurz indicates that Matveev (1981) concluded that, after 8 to 10 weeks of dynamic flexibility training, the gap between maximum dynamic and passive range of motion is minimized. So, the answer to your question is, "eventually" means when you are able to reach your maximum range of motion for your then current level of condition with only 12 repititions. "Eventually" does not mean when you've minimized the gap between your maximum dynamic and passive ranges of motion.

The answer to your second question is "yes." When you minimize the gap between your dynamic and passive ranges of motion, however, you will switch to the "maintenance" routine--15 to 25 repetitions.

[Caleb]

Thanks CSta! Your help is greatly appreciated

Btw, any idea why Kurz does the side leg raises more to the back, rather than being in line with the other foot?

[CSta]

Can you refer to a specific picture or part of the DVD?

[cailifo]

CSta,

Thanks for your detailed explanation. I have been starting each new set low and gradually increasing the height again to reach my max ROM. I now realize this is not 30-40 repetitions with all reps AT max ROM when that level is reached after the first 10-15 reps. Rather it is cutting that number in half and starting new sets low for no reason.

Once I close the gap between dynamic and passive flexibility I can switch to the maintenance routine with less reps per workout, so as to avoid setting an unnecessary muscle memory.

I think I have it understood now.

P.S. I've also noticed Mr. Kurz's side leg raises being angled somewhat to the rear. It's on the DVD at about 36 and 40 mins.

[CSta]

I assume, cailifo and Caleb, you are referring to the early morning stretch segment. I don't perceive Mr. Kurz's leg swinging more to the rear than the side. The illustration that has helped me most with body positioning in the side leg swing appears in Article 6.

[Caleb]

Ah, I see it now. He doesn't swing his leg to the back, he's just leaning his trunk/pelvis forward in such a way that it just looks like his leg is going sideways and back.

Also, according to the book (p. 131-132) and the column06, you need to tilt your pelvis forward and keep the knee bent. I was just raising my foot straight and attempting to minimize my forward lean because that's improper kicking technique in my traditional Okinawan karate style (Goju-Ryu).

I was also not reaching the sokuto with the palm of my hand because the leg is longer than the arm and I was not leaning forward enough.

A few questions:

1) Once I reach the palm of my hand on the side raises, do I straighten the knee, or is it ALWAYS supposed to be slightly bent?

2) It seems that no one mentions arm/trunk dynamic stretches much, is it ok for me to do them every morning along with the leg raises?

3) Before showing the isometric stretches the book warns (on p. 55) "Don't make the mistake of thinking you are supposed to do all these stretches (See chapter 2, p. 28)". When he says "all these stretches" does he mean not to do stretches for all parts of the body in one workout (neck, chest, shoulders, legs, etc..) or not to do multiple stretches that stretch the same muscle group?

4) There are stretches that lead to the front/side splits, for example front of the thigh, calf and hamstring stretches (front) and inner thigh for the toes forward and toes up splits. Do I do each of these stretches in a workout? And when do I do the actual side/front split isometric stretch?

5) The book says that around 3-5 sets per stretch should be done for the isometric stretches. This question is similar to the one asked about the dynamic stretches. Do I reach max ROM and hold it for 30 secs in EACH SET? That is, in the 1st set, I start high, tense, relax and slowly go lower until I reach my max ROM, and then hold for 30 secs, do I start the 2nd set from the beginning again?


I'm sorry if these question are silly, I'm just trying to make sure that I make no mistakes at all

[Thomas Kurz]

1) Once I reach the palm of my hand on the side raises, do I straighten the knee, or is it ALWAYS supposed to be slightly bent?

Always. For the reason, see Clinic on Stretching and Kicking.

2) It seems that no one mentions arm/trunk dynamic stretches much, is it ok for me to do them every morning along with the leg raises?

Yes.

3) Before showing the isometric stretches the book warns (on p. 55) "Don't make the mistake of thinking you are supposed to do all these stretches (See chapter 2, p. 28)". When he says "all these stretches" does he mean not to do stretches for all parts of the body in one workout (neck, chest, shoulders, legs, etc..) or not to do multiple stretches that stretch the same muscle group?

Yes to both. But if you feel you need to stretch a given muscle group in different positions to get the ROM you need, then do that.

4) There are stretches that lead to the front/side splits, for example front of the thigh, calf and hamstring stretches (front) and inner thigh for the toes forward and toes up splits. Do I do each of these stretches in a workout? And when do I do the actual side/front split isometric stretch?

Do whatever stretches you need to get the most ROM in your target exercise. For example, if shortness of calves limits your ROM in front splits, then stretch the calves.

You can do the actual split stretches right away. If some muscle group is the main obstacle in reaching your desired ROM, do stretches for it (see my answer above).

5) The book says that around 3-5 sets per stretch should be done for the isometric stretches. This question is similar to the one asked about the dynamic stretches. Do I reach max ROM and hold it for 30 secs in EACH SET? That is, in the 1st set, I start high, tense, relax and slowly go lower until I reach my max ROM, and then hold for 30 secs, do I start the 2nd set from the beginning again?

Each set should begins at a greater ROM--that is what the previous set was for. Haven't you noticed that?