Getting Started

[Dean]

I'll try to keep this short. I've got Kurz's book and video. I also have the "Synerstretch" video put out by Health For Life (A video I highly recommend". I have two questions. One comparing Jerry Robinson's video and Kurz's and another concerning starting the strength training and isometric stretching.

First, Jerry Robinson shows many lower body stretches for increasing flexibility in that region but advises against the side split exercise that Kurz teaches in his book and video due to the unnecessary strain and lateral torque it puts on the knee joints. He prefers the sitting 2-person groin stretch or groin stretches with a machine or the lying "V". He claims that you can get the flexibility you want in order to do the side and chinese splits by doing these isometric exercises without having to do the one that Kurz shows in the video and book (chinese splits). What do you think. I'm pretty sure Robinson is right but I would like your thoughts.

Second, I've done martial arts on and off for a while. I stopped for about 7 years after injuring my left hamstring due to overexercising (when I was training in TKD in Korea). I did quite a bit of weight training for a couple of years but stopped for about 5 years when I came back to the US for graduate school (biochemistry). Now I've started weight training again a few months ago and am trying to prepare to get back into the martial arts again to compete. Anyway, my question is, how do you know when you are strong enough to start the adductor strength training exercises and to start isometric stretching? I know in the book and on the video, Kurz says that you should be able to do back extensions with added weight up to more than 1/3 your body weight before going onto leg strengthening exercise but was wondering has anyone done that? Anyone here followed that protocol? What about other lower back exercises like the lead lift? How much weight should I be able to do before going to the squat? Actually, I've been squating for a few months now but I only squat 155lbs (my body weight being 165-68lbs). How much should I be able to squat or do with the lunges before my legs are strong enough for me to start on the specific exercises for the adductors? I know these are a lot of questions and it seems that I'm being anal but I want to do this right and avoid any injury whatsoever. These questions were not answered in the "Stretching Scientifically" book nor the video. I have Kurz's "Science of Sports Training" but have to admit that I haven't read it though I've skimmed parts. Does anyone know if my answer (or part there of) is in this book?

One last question. I've just started weight training at a 24 Hour Fitness Center. I don't know if you guys have a "24 Hour Fitness" where you guys are at but they're like a Bally's Total Fitness. Anyway, I digress. I got a deal where I get to work with a personal trainer. Now, he's quite knowledgeable on strength training (Many years of experienc) and have already taught me several things that I was doing wrong (and that you see almost everyone doing in the weightroom, even professional body builders) and that would lead to shoulder and back problems (I digress again). Well, he took my measurements for body fat composition and had me breathe into a device to get a reading (I'll spare you the details) and put all this info into a computer that spits out a nutrional and exercise routine with the goal of losing fat and gaining muscle for improving sports performance. Today he showed me what the computer spit out and it said to start with what is called SMFR (I forget what this stand for) which utilizes a round styrofoam pad and is used to "undo knots" and stretch out and massage various parts of the body (Calves, adductors, psoas, piriformis, bicep femoris, lats, pecs, etc). This followed by Cardio and then static stretching (which I know you're not suppose to do at the beggining of a workout and this personal trainer said as much). After that he had me do these exercises for strengthening the core (abdomen and lower back) using a big rubber ball (you've probably seen women use them when you go to a fitness center). Then he had me do these functional strength exercises that uses weights and uses movements that are more similar to those that would be used in my particular sport. I guess my question would be, does this sound legit to you? The personal trainer explained what the exercises do and it makes perfect sense to me but I'm skeptical when it comes to people who work in fitness places. I have no idea where they got their education and how much of it to be a fitness trainer (a lot of places have their own classes on becoming a fitness trainer). Perhaps I shouldn't have a low view of such personal fitness trainers but I can't help being a little cynical. Anyway, I know this was a bit more long winded that I wanted it to be (and probably more than it needed to be as well). Any advice would be helpful.

[mat]

First, Jerry Robinson shows many lower body stretches for increasing flexibility in that region but advises against the side split exercise that Kurz teaches in his book and video due to the unnecessary strain and lateral torque it puts on the knee joints. He prefers the sitting 2-person groin stretch or groin stretches with a machine or the lying "V". He claims that you can get the flexibility you want in order to do the side and chinese splits by doing these isometric exercises without having to do the one that Kurz shows in the video and book (chinese splits). What do you think. I'm pretty sure Robinson is right but I would like your thoughts.

Sounds to me like Jerry Robinson is not a martial artist. It is true that Kurz's side split on the floor (as opposed to a lying "V") is harder on the knees but if you are a martial artist practising kicks then you should be training to strengthen your knees. An experienced martial artist practising the splits with healthy knees will not experience knee pain, and it is a very good exercise. Also you must make sure you lock out your knees when you practise the side split.

A lying V split is also a good exercise but you will not get the same results as a proper floor split. It is much more difficult to make this an isometric split to get the best results.

As for machines - honestly, stay away from them. They isolate specifc muscles and while you may gain strangth in certain muscles, bcause you are supported you lose a lot of strength in core stabilising muscles. Also with split machines, it is far too easy to over-stress your muscles and cause injury. With a proper floor split, your body's natural reflexes and balance control your split.

I don't claim to be an expert, just speaking from 12 years' experience and also the advice of many respected members of this forum.

Cheers,
Mat

[dragon]

He prefers the sitting 2-person groin stretch or groin stretches with a machine or the lying "V". He claims that you can get the flexibility you want in order to do the side and chinese splits by doing these isometric exercises without having to do the one that Kurz shows in the video and book (chinese splits). What do you think. I'm pretty sure Robinson is right but I would like your thoughts.

If you're refering to the "2-person groin stretch" that has a partner put their feet on your ankles and push your legs apart,then that puts just as much strain on the knee.
I've not seen the video you refer to.If it is aimed at the average person to increase flexibility,then perhaps the cons out weigh the pros for the side split(the average person does not require this much flexibility).If you're a martial artist though,you are more likely to suffer knee damage from kicking than from stretching.

Anyway, my question is, how do you know when you are strong enough to start the adductor strength training exercises and to start isometric stretching?

Only you can answer that.Kurz suggests periodically testing yourself for isometrics to see if there is any pain.
I already perfromed strength training before i'd even heard of Thomas Kurz so i can't say i specifically conditioned myself before the flexibility routine.

I guess my question would be, does this sound legit to you? The personal trainer explained what the exercises do and it makes perfect sense to me but I'm skeptical when it comes to people who work in fitness places..

The thing i would suggest is to check the qualifications of the members of staff(even though that's no guarantee) and listen to others who have experience of the gym you attend.Again,your needs as a martial artist will be different from a person who has never trained before and just wishes to lose a few pounds.

Dragon.

[jrlefty]

Also you must make sure you lock out your knees when you practise the side split.

Do you mean when toes are facing upwards? Because Kurz talks more about keeping the knees bent when the toes are facing down. This would make the split, in essence, a really low horse riding stance. If you were to lock the knees in a side split with toes facing down you will have a severe tendency to lean forward to counter balance the weight but with knees bent you can balance you upper body better in the middle. http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch2.html

This is why many people tell you to stay away from splits with toes pointing down because it requires good strength in the core, hip, and leg muscles. Without it, your knees will tend to buckle in more when they should be about parallel to your hips and this can cause injury.

I know these are a lot of questions and it seems that I'm being anal but I want to do this right and avoid any injury whatsoever.

Stretching column #19 gives you a sequence of training from beginning crunches, weight training, leading up to hip and abductor training with recommended weights and reps for them for martial artists by kurz. If you are serious about avoiding injury and competing then I would recommend you check out all of the articles if you have not already. http://stadion.com/column.html

[mmeloon]

Dean, the others have already given you some great advice. I'll just add a few things:

- I only own one Health for Life product (Legendary Abs II) but my impression is that their stuff is geared for casual athletes, bodybuilders, and people looking to get into shape. Their ab routine, for example, doesn't even refer to muscular endurance anywhere and this is essential for athletes.

- It's actually pretty easy to work up to 1/3 of your bodyweight on back extensions on the bench. Even if you've never done these exercises before, you should be able to hit the criterion in a little over a month. Don't let the numbers intimidate you.

- I would definitely work on increasing your squat. You should definitely be squatting more than you weigh.

- It's hard to say anything about your physical trainer. The fact that he knew that static stretching prior to a workout was bad yet he had you do it anyhow doesn't fill me with confidence. Personally, I prefer to train myself. That way, if something goes wrong I'll know who to blame. It requires more effort on your part to become knowledgeable, but that's a small price to pay for being in control of your own destiny. Anyhow, give it some thought. Stadion's products will give you access to a wealth of information that most physical trainers don't have.

-Mark

[mat]

Do you mean when toes are facing upwards? Because Kurz talks more about keeping the knees bent when the toes are facing down. This would make the split, in essence, a really low horse riding stance. If you were to lock the knees in a side split with toes facing down you will have a severe tendency to lean forward to counter balance the weight but with knees bent you can balance you upper body better in the middle.

Yes I did mean the toes-down side plit, and well, it made sense to me that locking out the knees would be safer to counter the shearing forces - I assumed that with knees bent they are far more vulnerable.

I do lean right down forwards with my elbows on the ground, I do this to get the correct alignment of my hips (tilted forward). I can see how bending the knee would enable me to stay more upright, but I'm not clear how this is better?

Thanks,
Mat

[dragon]

I do lean right down forwards with my elbows on the ground, I do this to get the correct alignment of my hips (tilted forward). I can see how bending the knee would enable me to stay more upright, but I'm not clear how this is better?

If you can remain upright you are applying more resistance to the isometric side split.Leading eventually to being able to hold external resistance(Mr.Kurz holding the dumbbells in the Secrets of Stretching DVD for example).

I must admit though that the straight leg side split is aesthetically better(much the same as the thigh pointing down front split looks better than the martial arts split),but looking good is not what it's about unless you are a performance artist.

Dragon.

[jrlefty]

Yes I did mean the toes-down side plit, and well, it made sense to me that locking out the knees would be safer to counter the shearing forces - I assumed that with knees bent they are far more vulnerable.

Yes the knees would be more vulnerable if they buckled in but if they are parallel to your hips, like what is show in the pictures in the stretching column #2, then most the of the stretch should be felt in the inner thighs instead of the knees. I would think knees lock would be just as bad as knees buckled in because your stretching your knee ligaments the same time as your stretching your inner thighs. When I do side split stetches I just want my inner thighs feeling the stretch.

When I say knees buckled in, I mean that they are bent but lower then your hips and pointing more towards the floor instead of toward the ceiling. I would think doing side splits with knees slightly bent and parallel to your hips would be safer then locked knees because when you lock your knees you are tensing your thighs and relaxing your hamstrings. If you slightly bend your knee and kept it parallel both your thigh and hamstring mucles will be tensed and protecting the knee better as well as hold your balance better.

I understand why people like locking the knee when doing the side split because it gives the appearance of being lower in the split but the distance between your knees will most likely be the same with knees bent because your inner thighs are still tight. And of course also, like dragon says, it does look better. I know that when I do isometrics side splits with toes pointing down and knees locked I fall back when im all the way down because I am trying to balance myself. With my knees correctly bent, I can just relax in the split when im all the way down.

[mat]

Yes the knees would be more vulnerable if they buckled in but if they are parallel to your hips

By "Parallel to your hips" do you mean when the knees are the same height off the floor as your hips?

Mat

[jrlefty]

By "Parallel to your hips" do you mean when the knees are the same height off the floor as your hips?

Pretty much. Just like in the pictures of Kurz in Column #2. (http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch2.html)
If you want the split with toes pointing down then kurz recommends you keep your knees slightly bent and parallel so you can maximize the stretch in the inner thigh muscles.

Try it. It will seem like you lost some of your split because your feet are closer together but you will be stretching your inner thighs better and may speed up your improvements. Of course remember to keep your knees up and close to parallel as possible. you will eventually feel more comfortable in the side split and hopefully will relax into the split better.

If you put your elbows down on the ground, then i could understand why it will be hard to keep your knees parallel but they should still be bent.

Have fun,

Jrlefty

[mat]

Have fun, Jrlefty

Yes, I'll give it a go. Thanks!

Mat

[Dean]

Note: None of my comments are meant to be argumentative. I just like to be thorough and point out things that I don't see eye to eye with someone on and have a discussion where I can learn where my thinking may have gone wrong. So, take any comments by me with this in mind.

First, Jerry Robinson shows many lower body stretches for increasing flexibility in that region but advises against the side split exercise that Kurz teaches in his book and video due to the unnecessary strain and lateral torque it puts on the knee joints. He prefers the sitting 2-person groin stretch or groin stretches with a machine or the lying "V". He claims that you can get the flexibility you want in order to do the side and chinese splits by doing these isometric exercises without having to do the one that Kurz shows in the video and book (chinese splits). What do you think. I'm pretty sure Robinson is right but I would like your thoughts.

Sounds to me like Jerry Robinson is not a martial artist.

Actually, I believe he is a martial artist (Jeet Kun Do). I may be wrong though. However, I don't believe being a martial artist is a necessary condition for knowing whether or not side splits puts unnecessary lateral pressure on the knee. I believe his academic credentials (Ph.D) prove that he knows what he is talking about with respect to biomechanics.

It is true that Kurz's side split on the floor (as opposed to a lying "V") is harder on the knees but if you are a martial artist practising kicks then you should be training to strengthen your knees.

True, martial arts training does strengthen the knees but mostly with the movement of the joint (the way the knee bends) but not so much for pressure on the side of the knee.

An experienced martial artist practising the splits with healthy knees will not experience knee pain, and it is a very good exercise. Also you must make sure you lock out your knees when you practise the side split.

I'm not sure if the first part of your statement is true and may at best be anecdotal. It may be a good exercise but there is a risk involved. My original question (or one of them anyway) was can one do other isometric exercises (like those shown in Jerry Robinson's video) and still achieve a full split (even on chairs)?

A lying V split is also a good exercise but you will not get the same results as a proper floor split. It is much more difficult to make this an isometric split to get the best results.

This is a good point and I made the mistake of not indicating that this was not meant to be a isometric stretch but a passive one.

As for machines - honestly, stay away from them. They isolate specifc muscles and while you may gain strangth in certain muscles, bcause you are supported you lose a lot of strength in core stabilising muscles. Also with split machines, it is far too easy to over-stress your muscles and cause injury. With a proper floor split, your body's natural reflexes and balance control your split.

These are good points and I will stay away from the machines. You actually remind me of a drawback of the sitting exercises, which is that you don't involve the stabilizing muscles that are important in stretching as well. These are natural strengthened when you force the body to have to balance itself. This is why it is good to do functional strength exercises that help strengthen your core (like the standing up on a bench with one leg and doing a one-handed dumbbell press and then stepping down).

[Dean]

He prefers the sitting 2-person groin stretch or groin stretches with a machine or the lying "V". He claims that you can get the flexibility you want in order to do the side and chinese splits by doing these isometric exercises without having to do the one that Kurz shows in the video and book (chinese splits). What do you think. I'm pretty sure Robinson is right but I would like your thoughts.

If you're refering to the "2-person groin stretch" that has a partner put their feet on your ankles and push your legs apart,then that puts just as much strain on the knee.

This is a good point and the answer is, No, he does not teach you to have your partner put his feet on your ankles but rather to put them on the inside of the thigh just above the knee thus sparing you any pressure on the knees. He talks about this in his video and says that putting the feet at the ankles puts the same unnecessary lateral pressure (on the side of the knee) that you would get with the standing side splits and he says it is a common mistake made in partner streching of the groin area.

If you're a martial artist though,you are more likely to suffer knee damage from kicking than from stretching.

Actually, the video is geared towards a total body flexibility for athletes, particularly martial artists. I'm curious why you would say it is more likely to suffer knee damage from kicking than from stretching? Are you comparing kicking to stretching properly or stretching improperly? Is this kicking a bag or kicking during sparring? I think probabilities change in various circumstances.

Anyway, my question is, how do you know when you are strong enough to start the adductor strength training exercises and to start isometric stretching?

Only you can answer that.Kurz suggests periodically testing yourself for isometrics to see if there is any pain.
I already perfromed strength training before i'd even heard of Thomas Kurz so i can't say i specifically conditioned myself before the flexibility routine.

Thanks

I guess my question would be, does this sound legit to you? The personal trainer explained what the exercises do and it makes perfect sense to me but I'm skeptical when it comes to people who work in fitness places..

The thing i would suggest is to check the qualifications of the members of staff(even though that's no guarantee) and listen to others who have experience of the gym you attend.Again,your needs as a martial artist will be different from a person who has never trained before and just wishes to lose a few pounds.

Thanks. I'll do that. These are good points.

[Dean]

Also you must make sure you lock out your knees when you practise the side split.

Do you mean when toes are facing upwards? Because Kurz talks more about keeping the knees bent when the toes are facing down. This would make the split, in essence, a really low horse riding stance. If you were to lock the knees in a side split with toes facing down you will have a severe tendency to lean forward to counter balance the weight but with knees bent you can balance you upper body better in the middle. http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch2.html

This is a good point. Kurz does show you the side splits with your knees bent. I can't remember if he tenses his legs with the knees locked or bent. I think bent. If this is the case, perhaps bending the knees may take pressure off of them than if they were locked. I'm not sure about this last statement though. Anyone here with a degree in biomechanics that can tell us?

Stretching column #19 gives you a sequence of training from beginning crunches, weight training, leading up to hip and abductor training with recommended weights and reps for them for martial artists by kurz. If you are serious about avoiding injury and competing then I would recommend you check out all of the articles if you have not already. http://stadion.com/column.html

Thank you

[Dean]

Dean, the others have already given you some great advice. I'll just add a few things:

- I only own one Health for Life product (Legendary Abs II) but my impression is that their stuff is geared for casual athletes, bodybuilders, and people looking to get into shape. Their ab routine, for example, doesn't even refer to muscular endurance anywhere and this is essential for athletes.

What would you recommend for muscular endurance (for the abs as well as other muscle groups)?

- It's actually pretty easy to work up to 1/3 of your bodyweight on back extensions on the bench. Even if you've never done these exercises before, you should be able to hit the criterion in a little over a month. Don't let the numbers intimidate you.

Thank you. I'm about 168lbs and thus I would need go to an additional weight of about 55lbs. How do you hold this weight while doing back extensions and keep the back arched at the same time?

- I would definitely work on increasing your squat. You should definitely be squatting more than you weigh.

Do you have an idea of how much I should be squating before going on to adductor strength exercises?

- It's hard to say anything about your physical trainer. The fact that he knew that static stretching prior to a workout was bad yet he had you do it anyhow doesn't fill me with confidence. Personally, I prefer to train myself. That way, if something goes wrong I'll know who to blame. It requires more effort on your part to become knowledgeable, but that's a small price to pay for being in control of your own destiny. Anyhow, give it some thought. Stadion's products will give you access to a wealth of information that most physical trainers don't have.

To be charitable, he has made some good points about weight training and what is good and bad that I won't get into but I agree with you. I do take what he says with a grain of salt and compare it to what I learn from other sources (here, books, articles). Thanks for your help.