Lack of progress

[Jimmy]

This question is directed to Mr Kurz if possible.

I am 44 years old and recommenced training in TKD about 10 months ago. I also commenced flexibility training about the same time. I had been out of TKD for about 13 years. I have never been able to perform a side or front split. I have the DVD and book on Stretching Scientifically. My problem is that I am not progressing. I have read many of Mr Kurz’s articles and Q & A’s in the book and am aware of people not performing exercises and sequences etc. correctly and being impatient. I think I have been doing things properly and have started gradually and eased into the workout regime. I can perform adductor pull downs using about 28kg of resistance for 3 sets of 15, I do hamstring curls and leg extensions in the same workout followed by 3-5 sets of isometric front and side split exercises. I only experience slight stiffness the next day. My back seems strong. I weigh 62 kg.

In the beginning I think I was over training. I revised my program and found that I had no soreness and gradually increased frequency and intensity of exercises as I improved. The problem was my flexibility was not getting any better. I was doing dynamic stretches twice a day. The above resistance exercises twice a week (followed by isometrics) and an extra set of isometrics in between. I had no soreness. I was training a lot but not getting flexibility improvements. I backed off isometrics to twice a week, only did dynamic stretches as a warm-up before workouts, replaced one of my resistance workouts with front and side lunges (with 20kg of weight ) as well as some dead lifts. I noticed a temporary improvement in my flexibility (my left side which was weaker improved to almost the same as my right). I felt more flexible with this program, but now I get sore after resistance workouts (mainly the lunges with weights) and it takes a couple of days to get over it.

Mr Kurz, I’m keen to achieve side splits (I want to do high roundhouse kicks) but am getting frustrated with the lack of progress. I think I should be seeing better results by now. I can’t seem to find the right combination. I don’t care how long it takes as long as I can see some gradual improvement. Is it simply a case of more strength work on my legs before I see results or am I doing something drastically wrong? I do not feel any more flexible than when I started.

PS: In dynamic leg raises to the side, I can get my leg to shoulder height but this doesn’t seem to convert into higher roundhouse kicks (rib/stomach height only).

Thanks in anticipation
Jimmy

[john carroll]

Don't worry, u are not alone! I'm 32 now, and took a break from Martial Arts (I studied Kenpo for 5yrs) for the past 2 years to try & get my flexibility sorted! My flexibility is still very poor. In the 2 yrs of flexibility training I feel a lot looser, but I've only gain a few inches of flexibilty for front & side splits. I've even started yoga classes also (about 18 months ago), 2 times a week into my stretching training. My legs have gotten very strong to the stage where I'm now trying to force my legs to stretch just using the power in my legs like isometric stretching to stretch out the stiffness. I had originally thought the problems was the strength of my leg muscles, but the problem is my hips!

I could not do the flexibility test to begin with, but I can do the front split one now, but not the side! I think if your hips have poor range of motion, then it's very difficult to achieve good flexibility, at the rate i'm progressing myself, i think may take another 3 or 4 years. I'm still going to stick with it and keep up the yoga also & still continue to strengten my legs with practice the isometrics. The one area I had very little improvement in, is the horse stance. I gotten down to the stage where my legs are parallel to ground, toes forward, but I cannot progress outwards cause my hips just won't move!

I blame my office job partly for my bad flexibility! 9 hrs a day sitting doesn't help! Although i had a blood clot in my right leg which spread to my hip several years ago. I think that also is a major factor why i'm not making progress also, as my left leg flexibilty is better than my right and also that I can perform a roundhouse kick fine with my left leg and not my right, as my hip is so stiff that my leg and hip jam!! So I had to become a left footed kicker!

I can recommend buying some Castor Oil! I massage it into my muscles before I stretch and find it looses up the muscles helping them relax more. I also use heat pads a lot aroung my hip muscles with the oil and it has helped also.

Unfortunately I think some people are just lucky to be born with a nice set of loose hips with normal range of motion which makes achieving splits easier to do!

[Tim...]

Hi.

You've mentioned the weight training and isometrics you do, but not what you do on days when you are not doing isometrics.

From my own experience, I have to stretch every day to see major improvements. I'm not talking hardcore PNF every day, but I have to do something. Maintenance is easy, but improvement takes more work.

Weight training and PNF will definitely improve your results, but ultimately this all comes down to stretching. Many people get really flexible without knowing what PNF is, or ever using weights. The way they do it is by stretching a lot.

I'm not saying don't do PNF and weights. I'm just saying these are tools to get you to your goals quicker, but they are not a replacement for regular static stretching. If I were forced to make a choice of PNF twice a week or static stretching every day, I would pick the static stretching every time. Obviously, the ideal would be static stretching every day, plus PNF 3-4 days per week.

I've read a few interviews by top contortion artists who claim to stretch for 6-8 hours a day. Assuming you avoid injury, how can you not be madly flexible after doing this for a few weeks.

I know I've rambled on a bit here, but I guess what I'm trying to say is, your body gets used to doing what it does most of the time. If you spend all day on your butt, stretching twice a week isn't going to solve your problems, unless you are really lucky.

Cheers

Tim...

[davidp]

I was looking over some of the articles and found this one which seems to be the same for me. I've tried for a long time to get improvements.

I find I have fairly good dymanic range with my kicks but I have very poor static flexibility and I stretch everyday. Some days harder than others depending on what days my TKD classes are on.

The side splits for me are my curse. In class when we have done stretching where someone pushes your legs apart, unless the person is very strong they have no chance at pushing my legs to my full range (which isn't a lot) as the muscles are so tight.

I find I do have tight hips (outer) as I can sit cross legged and that is like a stretch for me.

Is it possible that for some people no matter the amount of weight training/stretching it's just not possible to perform a side split?

Yes I've done the test and apart from a slight tightness in the hips rotating my foot forward I can pretty much put my leg up to the side as in the pic. However the issue with this test is that its the hamstring being tested, my hamstrings aren't tight, it's my adductors (inner leg).

I guess it comes down too, does it work for everyone? Or for some it will take many many years though it's supposed to be a quick method.

David

[ash_leto]

I found that I was very stiff when I first started martial arts and I've made some good progress by focusing in on my weaknesses for a few weeks and then doing my "regular" stretches.

I had a tight tendon running down the inside of my knee so I performed exercises to loosen the tendon and associated muscle and as a result my side split has moved on another 10 degrees.

One thing Kurz does mention is muscle memory. In the past I used to sit for ages in box splits at a comfortable stretch (around 2/3 mins) and slowly stretch upto my maximum. I had it all back-to-front. I should have been stretching for 20-30 seconds at an easy level and increasing the stretch and make the final stretch the longest one. This way I'm creating a better muscle memory (i.e. the muscle gets more accustomed to the wider stretch as opposed to the easier one). This helped A LOT.

Also if you get pain/tightness in your hips try lyning on the floor with your backside against the wall. Put the left foot on the wall (start high with the foot position) and rest the right leg on your left knee at the ankle (as you would if you were sitting with your leg up on your knee). You'll find that in doing this your backside will leave the floor, to stretch the glutes and outer hip slowly lower your backside/foot.

In terms of strength in the legs I think the ability to squat/deadlift to a certain amount of repititions/weight is a good target to aim for if your legs are very weak through a lifetime of inactivity. But from my own experience I can deadlift/squat a lot more than my bodyweight and can perform a high number of reps with a lighter weight. But as most people do, I wanted a quick-fix or something similar when I first started. Because I found stretching hard I wanted an alternative and got too caught up in weights/reps etc. But what I should have done is persevered right from the start with the stretching. Basically if you want to do side splits, do side splits. Same with kicking, if you want to do roundhouse kicks higher, then kick higher. Give yourself a target on a punch bag and aim for it, do it with weights on your ankles and then without. When you've nailed that target - increase the height.

If you want any advice on hip strengthening for higher kicks, send me a PM and I'll be happy to help.

I read somewhere on here: if you do what you've always done, you'll only get what you always got.

[davidp]

RE: had a tight tendon running down the inside of my knee so I performed exercises to loosen the tendon and associated muscle and as a result my side split has moved on another 10 degrees.

What did you do to help loosen the tendons? I think that is what the issue could be for me. With my legs at the max position, feels like a tendon is popping out along the adductors.

I've been doing more stretching in the deep squat position and that seems to be fairly good. What I find is that I can eventually get to my maximum but it takes time. If I could almost straight away get to my max that would be good enough stretch for my kicking I reckon even though it's not a full split. (though I intend on trying for that full split one day!!)

Actually I was doing that a bit, trying to stay in stretches for much longer which I was doing more at less than max. I'll try to make sitting at my max the longest time instead.

David

[ash_leto]

It depends what the cause of the tight tendon was. It's either: -
1) The sartorious muscle (running down the quads from the outer hip to the inside of the knee)
2) Or it's the semi-membranous/semi-tendinous (the other muscles that form the hamstrings)
For (1) - Do a knee raise with ankle weights except you tilt your foot insward like you're checking the sole of your foot for dirt. Or (2) Try straight-leg deadlifts with a light weight or normal deadlifts with a heavier weight or a combo of both.

The way I've started to make progess is...
1- 10 bodyweight deep squats, then 1 min lying quad stretch
2- 10 sit-ups (to warm up the psoas/hip flexor for the back leg in the front split), then 1 min each leg stretch for the psoas/hip flexor (loads to pick from)
3- 1 min each leg seated hamstring stretch (basically reach forward and grab the foot)
4- 1 min each way front plit attempt
5-box splits, 4 sets of 30 secs then 1 set of 1 min at max stretch

on point (5) if my hamstrings are sore after any set I do 10 straight-leg deadlifts with a light weight, or if my adductors are sore I do 10-20 adductor flyes with 1kg ankle weights. I find the exercises in between the stretches help work out the soreness and help me push on a little bit more.

The muscle memory tip, combined with the exercises has helped my side splt from 140 deg to 155 deg in around a month.

If you want to kick higher, improve the strength in your outer hips and glutes (leg raises with weights, slow - and I mean SLOW 10 seconds at least- kicks with ankle weights, weighted straight-leg raises while hanging). For power you can't do any better than heavy squats for 5 sets of 5 reps and walking lunges with heavy dumbells for around 3 sets of 20 reps.

[Thomas Kurz]

My problem is that I am not progressing. I have read many of Mr Kurz’s articles and Q & A’s in the book and am aware of people not performing exercises and sequences etc. correctly and being impatient. I think I have been doing things properly and have started gradually and eased into the workout regime. I can perform adductor pull downs using about 28kg of resistance for 3 sets of 15, I do hamstring curls and leg extensions in the same workout followed by 3-5 sets of isometric front and side split exercises.

In the beginning I think I was over training. I revised my program and found that I had no soreness and gradually increased frequency and intensity of exercises as I improved. The problem was my flexibility was not getting any better. I was doing dynamic stretches twice a day. The above resistance exercises twice a week (followed by isometrics) and an extra set of isometrics in between. I had no soreness. I was training a lot but not getting flexibility improvements. I backed off isometrics to twice a week, only did dynamic stretches as a warm-up before workouts, replaced one of my resistance workouts with front and side lunges (with 20kg of weight ) as well as some dead lifts. I noticed a temporary improvement in my flexibility (my left side which was weaker improved to almost the same as my right). I felt more flexible with this program, but now I get sore after resistance workouts (mainly the lunges with weights) and it takes a couple of days to get over it.

Mr Kurz, I’m keen to achieve side splits (I want to do high roundhouse kicks) but am getting frustrated with the lack of progress. I think I should be seeing better results by now. I can’t seem to find the right combination. I don’t care how long it takes as long as I can see some gradual improvement. Is it simply a case of more strength work on my legs before I see results or am I doing something drastically wrong? I do not feel any more flexible than when I started.

Resistance should be such as to permit full range of motion (ROM). Too much and the ROM does not improve or even diminishes. Too little, and strength at full ROM does not increase enough to translate into greater ROM, especially to "cold ROM."

In dynamic leg raises to the side, I can get my leg to shoulder height but this doesn’t seem to convert into higher roundhouse kicks (rib/stomach height only).

Seems like poor mechanics of the kick. Study Clinic on Stretching and Kicking or Power High Kicks with No Warm-Up!.

[Thomas Kurz]

I could not do the flexibility test to begin with, but I can do the front split one now, but not the side! I think if your hips have poor range of motion, then it's very difficult to achieve good flexibility, at the rate i'm progressing myself, i think may take another 3 or 4 years.

If your hip joints have poor ROM due to their bone structure, then you will not do the side split--not in a 100 years.

If your ROM to the side is limited by poor alignment of your hips and thighs, then you will make great progress as soon as you apply the correct alignment.

The one area I had very little improvement in, is the horse stance. I gotten down to the stage where my legs are parallel to ground, toes forward, but I cannot progress outwards cause my hips just won't move!

So don't "progress outwards" but rather downwards, i.e. don't try to spread your legs wider until your buttocks are lower than your knees.

Although i had a blood clot in my right leg which spread to my hip several years ago. I think that also is a major factor why i'm not making progress also, as my left leg flexibilty is better than my right and also that I can perform a roundhouse kick fine with my left leg and not my right, as my hip is so stiff that my leg and hip jam!! So I had to become a left footed kicker!

Have it checked with a good AK specialist before you ruin your hip joint.

[Thomas Kurz]

Weight training and PNF will definitely improve your results, but ultimately this all comes down to stretching. Many people get really flexible without knowing what PNF is, or ever using weights. The way they do it is by stretching a lot.

I'm not saying don't do PNF and weights. I'm just saying these are tools to get you to your goals quicker, but they are not a replacement for regular static stretching.

Yes, they are. Rational resistance training 2-3 times per week keeps my flexibility near its max (see 1-minute split maintenance).

If I were forced to make a choice of PNF twice a week or static stretching every day, I would pick the static stretching every time.

If I did that, I would have next to no strength at full ROM.

Obviously, the ideal would be static stretching every day, plus PNF 3-4 days per week.

I'd rather lift weights two or three times per week--better ROI (return on investment), as far as ROM and strength through full ROM is concerned. Static stretching (isometric, a.k.a. PNF) is a good addition, especially for trouble spots. Relaxed stretching (also static stretching) is the least effective but OK if you have the time for it.

I've read a few interviews by top contortion artists who claim to stretch for 6-8 hours a day. Assuming you avoid injury, how can you not be madly flexible after doing this for a few weeks.

Top contortionists are people with predispositions for far more than average ROM (as I explained in one of my e-mail Q&A) and who do little else but contortion--no explosive power moves, no heavy lifting, etc.

... your body gets used to doing what it does most of the time. If you spend all day on your butt, stretching twice a week isn't going to solve your problems.

True.

[Thomas Kurz]

In class when we have done stretching where someone pushes your legs apart, unless the person is very strong they have no chance at pushing my legs to my full range.

That is so densely stupid.

Is it possible that for some people no matter the amount of weight training/stretching it's just not possible to perform a side split?

Yes. See explanation of the test of flexibility potential in Stretching Scientifically on pages 108-112

Yes I've done the test and apart from a slight tightness in the hips rotating my foot forward I can pretty much put my leg up to the side as in the pic. However the issue with this test is that its the hamstring being tested ...

No, it is not the hamstring that is being tested. See explanation of the test of flexibility potential in Stretching Scientifically on pages 108-112

I guess it comes down too, does it work for everyone? Or for some it will take many many years though it's supposed to be a quick method.

It is--if you actually use it.

[Thomas Kurz]

... if you want to do roundhouse kicks higher, then kick higher. Give yourself a target on a punch bag and aim for it, do it with weights on your ankles ...

An excellent way to acquire arthritis of ankles, knees, hips and the lower back.

[ash_leto]

Mr Kurz,

Initially an instructor told me (many moons ago) that doing kicks with ankle weights would improve the speed of my kicks if I did them in an explosive fashion, but after trying it a few times I ditched the idea due to pain in the hips, knees, ankles etc. Also I noticed no increase in speed, just increased injuries (it's difficult to control some kicks done fast if there's a weight on your ankle!)

Although not on a regular scheduled basis, I started re-incorporating ankle weights back into my training always performing exercises in a slow controlled manner to improved the strength in the muscles that enable that particualr kick to gain/maintain height as opposed to speed/power. Would this still lead to me acquiring athritis as you mentioned?

Plus I read somewhere recently that you don't agree with regular bodybuilding one-body-part-per-week training splits. How often would you recommend training legs in a 7 day period for improving flexibility (I train myself and don't attend regular martial arts classes so I can train whenever I want)? At present I train them once a week, using a mixture of squats, leg-presses, deadlifts, walking lunges and calf raises using 3-4 sets of 10 reps (1 set of 50 reps for calves for muscular stamina).

[Thomas Kurz]

Although not on a regular scheduled basis, I started re-incorporating ankle weights back into my training always performing exercises in a slow controlled manner to improved the strength in the muscles that enable that particualr kick to gain/maintain height as opposed to speed/power. Would this still lead to me acquiring athritis as you mentioned?

It depends. See http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch52.html

Plus I read somewhere recently that you don't agree with regular bodybuilding one-body-part-per-week training splits. How often would you recommend training legs in a 7 day period for improving flexibility (I train myself and don't attend regular martial arts classes so I can train whenever I want)? At present I train them once a week, using a mixture of squats, leg-presses, deadlifts, walking lunges and calf raises using 3-4 sets of 10 reps (1 set of 50 reps for calves for muscular stamina).

For strength and for flexibility, whole body workout (resistance workout) twice per week. The long version takes me less than an hour, usually about 40 minutes. A short whole body workout takes under 30 minutes.

[ash_leto]

So reading that article you hyperlinked to...

So long as I don't get any weird aches, pains, DOMS etc and barring low fitness levels or pre-existing injuries/problems the exercises with ankle weights done in a slow and controlled manner should not necessarily lead to arthritis. Is this the gist of it?