Advice for several problems needed...

[patrick_brooks]

Hi guys! I need some advice here... OK, where to start... I recently (2 months ago) took up TKD again after a 7-year hiatus, and yes, my flexibility has diminshed, no surprise there, as I am coming up on 30 now and have not been stretching regularly. I used to be able to do front splits and get about 8-9 inches from the ground in the side split position, but now am not able to come close to performing any of the splits. Here's the deal: I fail the side split and front split tests, but know that my body will allow me to do them, as I used to be able to perform the front splits and almost do the side split. I don't fail the front split test by much when warmed up, probably get to about 150-160 degrees or so, then I am limited by tightness in what I guess is the psoas (on the bottom of the front leg). If I attempt the actual front split my hamstrings stop me dead at 110-120 degrees. I got a lot further when I started again 2 months ago, but now am totally limited in my front kicks and front splits because of this. What's funny is that I can do the stiff-legged toe touch and grab my ankles and put my chest flat against my legs and my head to my shins, so they don't impede this type of stretching. What in the world could be causing this? If I try to do the front splits or place my leg on a tall object and stretch in the front kick position, the next day my hamstrings are a bad (injured) kind of sore, and I can't lock my knees out or they will hyperextend, causing pain (after a day or 2 of rest, though, they go back to normal). Should I stop stetching them (my hams) for a few weeks and see what happens? Also, I can acheive 130-140 degrees when fully warmed up in the frog and butterfly streches (with my wife on my knees in the butterfly position after performing reps to failure by lifting her 15 or so times with my adductors, my legs touch the ground (not my knees, just my legs... I have large thighs, so they touch the ground first). If, however, I try to spread my legs on the floor (legs extended), I can only get 100 degrees or so, and it causes severe pain in my hips and knees, and my knee joints are unstable for a couple of days (will hyperexted backwards and pain is caused at any movement that puts any kind of sideways pressure on the joint). I'm afraid the site will time me out for taking too long to write this post, so I'm goint to submit this now and put my stretching routine up in a separate post in a second.

[patrick_brooks]

Every morning: 1 light set each of frog strech, runner's stretch and stiff-legged toe touch to reset muscle length for thr day. Every afternoon: 3 sets of frog stretch, runner's stretch and stiff-legged toe touch, alternating stretches to give the muscle groups sufficient time to recover from the last set. Every other afternoon: 1 set lunges on each side with 115 lbs. or so and the above-described adductor exercises with my wife's bodyweight on top of the afternoon routine. So, am I just a freak of nature, or do other people have these problems? I'm in good shape, work out regularly and have good balance, so I could be a good martial artist again if I could regain my lost flexibility. Help!!! Thanks in advance! You can reply here or e-mail me at patrick.brooks4@t-mobile.com

[patrick_brooks]

1.I also do dynamic leg raises front side and rear every afternoon/evening
2. The hamstring problem affects my side/roundhouse/hook kicks because I lean back to be able to kick high and I use proper hip positioning, and this kills the hamstring of the leg that is planted on the ground. So, when my legs are together it's OK, but with any movement that separates my legs AND requires hamstring flexibility, it hurts and limits me!
3. The above mentioned lunges with weight are front lunges.
4. Regarding the legs apart seated stretch, I've experimented with hip positiong, leaning forward at different angles to try to not jam the femur into the hip curvature, but it doesn't seem to help.
5. I have Stretching Scientifically and can't find any advice specific to these problems

[dragon]

My advice would be to follow the program from Stretching Scientifically rather than trying to adapt it to your current program.

There are quite a few things that stood out about your posts(too many to quote).

A few though:-
1-Your wife standing on your legs-No point in risking the injury.
2-Static stretches in the morning-If you intend to be a good kicker you'd be better off with dynamic stretches.
3-Lunges or the adductor flies with your wife standing on your legs done everyday-Not enough rest to see any results.Strength training can be reduced to twice per week.

I'd advise starting all over again with a much simpler approach.

Start your workouts with a warm up and dynamic stretching.After your workout pick one relaxed stretch for each muscle from Stretching Scientifically.
I've never liked the toe touch stretch due to the risk of over stretching the spine and the frog stretch is one of the most intense i've come across for the adductors.
Stength training twice per week consisting of squats and stiff leg deadlifts(heavy weight/low rep).Dynamic strength exercises can be done after this workout-side and front lunges(low weight/high rep).

Keeping it simple will mean there are less things to go wrong so you will be able to adjust your program when needed.

Hope this helps,

Dragon.

[patrick_brooks]

Thanks Dragon! I had planned to wait a few days (recovery) and then do it by the book. BTW: I was doing the adductor exercises with my wife's bodyweight every other day, not every day. Any reason you or anybody else can give me for the strange hamstring/knee/hip problems I have?

[dragon]

I've had the same thing in the past and for me i'd say it was the hip flexor.
After reading Pavel Tsatsouline's books he places a lot of emphasis on the stretching the hip flexors.

The reason i say this may be the case for you:-

1-You say you can't do the front split test but you used to be able to perform the front split.The front split test has your thigh pointing to the ground(like a gymnastic split which requires good hip flexor/lower back flexibility).The majority of martial artists perform the martial art front split(back leg turned out so it's the inner thigh that points to the ground.

2-If you place your lead leg on a high support(front kick position),the pain you feel may be due to inflexibility of the hip flexor of the supporting leg if you try to keep it facing forwards.

3-Inflexibility of the hip flexor may be what is causing a reduction in stretch when you do a front split but stretching when the hip flexor is relaxed(toe touch stretch) seems to be fine.

All this is only personal experience from myself.I know Mr. Kurz and Mr. Tsatsouline seem to have different views on this:-Tsatsouline seems to place more emphasis on stretching the hip flexor to increase sports performance,Kurz places more emphasis on strengthening it.


Dragon.

[patrick_brooks]

I've had the same thing in the past and for me i'd say it was the hip flexor.
After reading Pavel Tsatsouline's books he places a lot of emphasis on the stretching the hip flexors.

The reason i say this may be the case for you:-

1-You say you can't do the front split test but you used to be able to perform the front split.The front split test has your thigh pointing to the ground(like a gymnastic split which requires good hip flexor/lower back flexibility).The majority of martial artists perform the martial art front split(back leg turned out so it's the inner thigh that points to the ground.

2-If you place your lead leg on a high support(front kick position),the pain you feel may be due to inflexibility of the hip flexor of the supporting leg if you try to keep it facing forwards.

3-Inflexibility of the hip flexor may be what is causing a reduction in stretch when you do a front split but stretching when the hip flexor is relaxed(toe touch stretch) seems to be fine.

All this is only personal experience from myself.I know Mr. Kurz and Mr. Tsatsouline seem to have different views on this:-Tsatsouline seems to place more emphasis on stretching the hip flexor to increase sports performance,Kurz places more emphasis on strengthening it.


Dragon.

No, my hip flexor is OK, suprisingly, for all of the cycling I do. It's tension one of the lower/inner muscles of the leg that stops me from going to 180 degrees. I looked at many anatomy charts and couldn't clearly figure out which muscle it is, but I am making progress, so that's not a big concern. It's the hamstring of the lead leg that stops me from performing the front split, really strange, because as I said, stiff-legged toe touch with my chest and nose on my legs are no problem... I can even go further than palms flat on the ground right after I roll out of bed in the morning. It just happens when my legs are separated... I'll try the workout routine you mention and try to not be too overzealous, because it seems to be killing my progress.

[patrick_brooks]

Thanks again for your previous input, Dragon! Here's the question: should I continue the stiff-legged bend/toe touch exercise and stiff-legged deadlifts since they cause no discomfort, or should I leave my hamstrings alone completely for several weeks, since they give mr the specefic problem mentioned above? BTW, I started doing true PNF atretching (just did half-assed contractions before), and, wow! Much less pain, and I was able to strech further than before (side split). Thanks again!

[dragon]

That's a tough one to answer.

If your hamstrings are just tight,weak,unconditioned,etc then a good strength and flexibility program will help.
If they are injured then i'd definatley leave the heavy lifting for a while.

Dragon.

[patrick_brooks]

OK, but how about the toe-touch stretch? As I said before, I can put my chest flat against my legs with little/no discomfort, but should I back off from this stretch for a while simply because my hamstrings hurt when I do other stretches? Also, when my legs are bent and I squat down and come back up(as in the squat or lying squat with the Smith press machine), my hamstrings ache... Maybe that will help with a diagnosis of the problem? Anyways, thanks for all your help! I did PNF stretching again last night (1 day on/1 off) and it's amazing how I don't hurt/ache and warm up really quickly!

[dragon]

If you're performing the toe touch stretch correctly and in a way that isn't setting you up for injury then stick with it.

You say you did PNF stretching and "warmed up really quickly".Were you doing this from cold(hence,the warming up) or doing it as part of a warm up?

Dragon.

[patrick_brooks]

I ran for 20-25 minutes (about 5 km) before starting PNF, but my adductors aren't super pliable, even after running. That's what I meant, I really start to get warm/flexible after the first set of PNF. I do remember Kurz telling someone on this website that if a stretch is good ad it doesn't cause pain during/after it is performed then it is OK, but I wanted to make sure. Thanks again!

[dragon]

If running is your chosen sport then you would be performing the isometrics at the end of your workout which is fine.
If you do anything else in your workout though,the isometrics should always be done at the end(before the relaxed stretching).

Don't do any static stretching before an activity.


Dragon.