Lack of progress with side split

Moe · Post by **Moe** » Jun 15, 2005 08:48

Hi,

I have been following stretching routine and I'm still on the way to full splits. The front split is coming along although progress is very slow because I am using relaxed stretches. My only problem is that i feel pain in the hamstrings and if i over do it the pain increases while flexibility decrease, anyone with a similar issue?

The side split is the nightmare, I am using relaxed stretches to practice it and the deepest I can go is about 20cm from the floor and I seem to be stuck at that level. There is no progress. I usually relax into the stretch and hold it for 30 seconds. I do about 5 sets of these almost daily. Question is does the side split improve with relaxed stretching or is it important to do Isometrics? Furthermore I am attempting the side split with toes pointing forward. With toes pointing upwards I can spread my legs quite far and close to a full split but what prevents me is pain in the hips.

jrlefty · Post by **jrlefty** » Jun 15, 2005 14:17

My only problem is that i feel pain in the hamstrings and if i over do it the pain increases while flexibility decrease, anyone with a similar issue?

A little pain is normal but if your flexibility is decreasing then you are overdoing it. Try holding onto a chair when your doing front splits to take some of the weight off and work on relaxing more. Also you should open your hips by pushing your front leg and hip away from your body. Its almost like trying to make a straight line from your front ankle, to your hips and to your back ankle. It helps take the stress off the thigh muscle of the back leg.

Question is does the side split improve with relaxed stretching or is it important to do Isometrics?

Side and front splits can improve with relaxed stretching but it will take a very long time compared to isometrics with strength training because static relax stretching can only get you to your current flexibility limit when fully relaxed and that limit is usually determined by your strength and conditioning level. Isometrics can definitely help you strengthen you legs for side split but you must make sure first that your legs are prepared for them. If your sore from doing isometrics you need to strengthen your core muscles and legs first before trying them again.

Furthermore I am attempting the side split with toes pointing forward. With toes pointing upwards I can spread my legs quite far and close to a full split but what prevents me is pain in the hips.

if you have pain in the hips when performing the side split toes down then maybe you are not aligning you hip correctly. see: http://stadion.com/column_stretch2.html.
Even following the advice from the link, you will still feel pain in your hips until you learn how to relax your body while performing the split regardless if your toes are up or facing down. A couple of ways to relieve the pain in the hips are: 1. waiting out the tension. try staying in your split for at least a minute and just wait and relax in the split. and/or 2. strenghten your leg and core muscles plus condition your body so you can relax faster.

have fun,

jrlefty

Moe · Post by **Moe** » Jun 15, 2005 17:20

Hey lefty, I value your advice and thank you very much.
Even though I read the book several times I believe I have missed something important that you pointed out:

If your sore from doing isometrics you need to strengthen your core muscles and legs first before trying them again.

I realized that I'm not sore after doing Isometrics but still thought that I wasn't strong enough for them due to other things listed in the book that I probably misinterpreted. And of course I have been a bit lazy to do them at times.

May I ask if you are able to do both splits fully and how long did it take you to notice any gains using isometrics. Thanks once again.

Moe

jrlefty · Post by **jrlefty** » Jun 16, 2005 10:47

As of right now, I am able to front split in both directions with about two minutes of relax stretches and I can slide into the side split with toes pointing up with about ten to fifteen minutes of relax stretches.

I have not done isometrics in about year because I had stopped weightlifting because of a shoulder injury from benching and soon after a hamstring pull from a Tae Kwon Do tournament. It was about five years ago when I first got my front split but I do remember that it only took a couple of months because I loved to do squats and stiff legged deadlifts at the time. The first time I did a side split I remember was during one summer when I did nothing but train for it with weightlifting and Isometrics and it took about three months. I talk about it for a bit in this thread: http://stadion.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=257&start=0

From my experience, isometrics work best with strength training. When I do isometrics now its not the same as when I had done it in the past when in the gym. My legs are strong enough not to get sore also but I do not see as much gain as I used to.

Moe · Post by **Moe** » Jul 07, 2005 16:11

Hey again!
I am posting because I am happy that I made some progress with my side split!
About 2 weeks ago in my Wu Shu class I slid into a very low side split about 10 cms from the ground and this is way better than before. Even alot of my friends who train with me commented and where surprised by my progress. Its slow but I am getting there, although its still not a full side split it will soon be!

jrlefty · Post by **jrlefty** » Jul 07, 2005 20:59

congrats on your progress. from experience, I would not slow down working on your side split even when on some days it seems that you lost some flexibility. Just try to remember what you did and how you were feeling on that day so you can mimic it or improve on it and you should do fine.

Another trick that I use when I am as close as you are in a split and want to go lower is shift into a front split in both directions and then return back into the side split. I usually spend about 10 to 15 seconds on the front split then immediatly do the same on the other side and return to the middle. This will require you to slide up a bit when shift because of your hips but it gets easier the more you practice. Try to keep your knees LOCKED when shifting from one side to the next and try not to rush it. The shifting from side to front split helps relax the hips better. Also you should try front splits before side splits for the same reason of relaxing the hips first before attempting side splits.

remember have fun,

jrlefty

Moe · Post by **Moe** » Jul 08, 2005 13:34

I am attempting the side splits and front splits almost daily. And i'm not willing to give up at all especially after the progress I made.

5 min ago I was doing splits and I followed your advice Lefty, on switching to the front splits and back to the side split. I noticed that it loosens the hip a little bit and makes sitting in the side split position more 'comfortable'. The only complaint is that when i shift into front splits I feel something around the hamstring and it feels like a string or line being moved around, its a little pain but a bit disturbing, dont know what it is.

As for my front splits I found that I can sit almostly flatly on them after 4 sets of trying.!

Thanks Lefty!

jrlefty · Post by **jrlefty** » Jul 10, 2005 10:10

The only complaint is that when i shift into front splits I feel something around the hamstring and it feels like a string or line being moved around, its a little pain but a bit disturbing, dont know what it is.

I'm not sure either. I usually get discomfort in my hips when shifting. Try lifting yourself up higher before you shift until your body gets used to it and see what happens.

keep up the good work,

lefty

Moe · Post by **Moe** » Jul 10, 2005 11:52

BTW did you yet develop a level of flexiblity which you can reach without warm up?

I can slide into front split until a certain point without warm up but the rest needs relaxation. I hope this continues further until i can do it without warm up, any insights on this?

jrlefty · Post by **jrlefty** » Jul 11, 2005 12:13

If what you really want is to slide into your splits with little to no warmup then you really should focus more on the strength of your core muscles and legs. This is the "Secret of Stretching" that many people go into denial about. I gave up lifting weights a long time ago because my TaeKwonDo training was to rough, I would be sore for several days after a class (I went twice a week because i could not handle any more) and I kept getting injured be it my shoulder or pulled hamstrings. My progress soon after my progress grew very little year after year and I had believed that it was because that was as fast as I can go. It was not until recently that I realized that my school was very good at teaching technique but does not know the proper way to train athletic ability and in fact they have severly slowed my progress. Today I have to hold back in my classes just so I will not be sore for weight lifting and and endurance training.

This is very hard for a lot of people to hear. I try to hint it to other students in my class and its like telling them there is no santa claus. I look around and see students year after year keep stretching and never seem to make any significant progress. They feel that just showing up in class is enough because they get a grouling hour and half workout that keeps them sore for days is enough but they never seem to grasp the point that maybe they are to weak to advance or maybe they just don't care and just want the belt, I don't know.

Through the many years of training that I have been through, which is really not that much, I have also come to realize that some students just don't want that type of athletic ability or flexibility that would make a person a great martial artist because of the work it requires but just want to accomplish a little bit at a time just to know they have the will to take on anything that comes there way in life. Sometimes it is more about making a better person than making a better martial artist. If you are this type of person than all the power to you, there is nothing wrong with that. People need challenges prepare them for the even bigger challenges in life.

But if you really truly want to take your skills to that next level than you must make a total life change. To have that type of flexibility that requires no warmup will take alot of work to achieve but at least it will take little work to maintain. If you have not done so yet, read all of the articles in the stadion columns http://www.stadion.com/column.html. I especially like #'s 18 and 19 because they offer a rude awakening. Start organizing your training days so you can train in your martial art, strength train, and endurance train in the same week and not conflict with each other. Stretching scientificly talks about this for a bit in the isometrics section and the stretching columns go into more detail.

Oddly enough, I treat my Tae Kwon Do class as a endurance workout instead of a technique workout because of all the drills that we do. If your classes are similar than I would advise you to do the same. It works great for me because I can let my body heal longer. I practice techniques on my own at home on the apropriate day. If you can't join a gym and have no weights at home, at least learn about some body weight exercises that you can start doing. Start running or at least get yourself a jump rope. You absolutely must start working on your core muscles with abdominal and lower back training. Start doing situps, crunches and back raises on the floor. The more research you do the better you will understand what excercises and techniques will work for you and what does not.

As of right now, I have taken time off from my martial arts school so I can build up my strength and endurance. I lift weights twice a week with exercises like shoulder presses and deadlifts, train my abs and at least once a week with crunches and situps, train on techniques at least once a week and work on endurance once a week by either running, jump rope or rollerblading. I hardly ever relax stretch now and I do dynamic stretches once a day. I do not know if this is the best approach but I am trying it out to see what happens because I really want to focus on being in better shape.

Try to at least understand that being able to perform a split is only good at desplaying things like your strength and determination. Being able to do a split alone does not make you a better martial artist (It sure does help). A split shows other people that you put the work into abtaining that level of flexibility and you had the will and determination to achieve it. This is where people screw up. They go straight to stretching to have that image but fail to realize that it takes much more than stretching to achieve it.

hope I didnt overwhelm you,
Any questions I'll be around,

jrlefty

Moe · Post by **Moe** » Jul 11, 2005 16:02

Hey Lefty, that was a good post that brought up many things I want to talk about.

To start off, yes I do want to achieve splits with no warm up and maintain that level of flexibility and I am slowly gettin there. I have been working on splits and stretches for 4 months straight now and I am not willing to stop here.

Until the end of last year I was attending my martial art classes (Wu Shu) only twice a week. But now I have seriously immersed myself into the art and go as often as 4 times a week, although school is on the way.
I am working on a daily routine that I stopped only a month ago due to work overload. But I do crunches everyday 3 sets of 30 crunches then proceed to push ups and some relaxed stretching, that is in the morning.
At night I would lift weights, light ones for my upper body strength but due to lack of equipment I dont have the means to train my legs. I do so through Isometrics.

My martial art Wu Shu, is quite different to Tae Kwon Do and Karate, it embarks heavily on flexibility and we do also drills but they work the whole body. That is one of my main reasons to work on splits, many of the positions we do in forms require sitting in and even landing in splits positions. Not that it is a necessary requirement, but i am ambitious and want to achieve that. Wu shu is argued by many to be a performance art, and to some extent that is true, we don't spar very often but the forms we practice give amazing strength if applied correctly. I believe that through years of practice one can use Wu Shu to defend themselves.

Finally, I think that even through relaxed stretching with enough patience and effort one can achieve high levels of flexilibty without warm up. True that it does not give your legs the strength provided by doing Isometrics but I will experiment and try my best.

jrlefty · Post by **jrlefty** » Jul 11, 2005 23:31

I have met and seen many wushu artist at different tournaments including the Arnold Fitness Weekend and know from watching that yes wushu is a very demanding art that requires a great deal of flexibility and athletic ability. I know from talking to them and doing my own research on flexibility that to reach that type of flexibility you at least have to be in good shape in terms of aerobic fitness and anaerobic fitness. You still seem reluctant to lift weights. If you had been stretching since you were little and never stopped than I can see why you would not feel the need to work out like many of the wushu athletes I have met. But, since you have not then you need to build the necessary strength in your body to achieve your goal. I have seen many people who have gained splits without even hearing of Kurz and his stretching material or lifted a single weight and the one thing that I noticed about them is that they are in great shape, very relaxed and calm and also have enough strength to control their bodyweight. This includes being able to do handstand pushups, one legged squats and leg raises without any strain.

If you want to achieve your splits without doing squats or deadlifts thats totally fine but you still have to build strength in your entire body to relax your muscles no matter how you look at it. If you feel that your school will give you that necessary training to achieve your goal than great. Sadly my school is not one of them. One way to gauge if your school is qualified or not is to look at the higher belts that have done all their training in your school. If they are at least close to the level that you want to achieve than you might have a decent school. Of course you might have a couple of students who are not even close but at least give it an effort and are not there to fufill there martial arts movie dream.

You will need to be doing alot more bodyweight exercises and stretching to achieve your goal. Maybe try and invest in at least a pullup bar. You can work on your chin ups as well as your knee and leg raises for your abs. Try using your weights that you use for your upper body for squats or maybe do some hindu squats. when you do pushups try to squeeze out one or two single hand pushups or maybe change the angle of your hands when doing them like diamond pushups. find a step and do some calve raises with the weights you have or just your bodyweight.

In terms of stretching you need to be stretching more. As much as you can per day. You do not have to stop what you are doing at work or school and jump into a program but when you have a minute maybe try standing and touch your toes, prop your leg on a desk and grab your ankle, lock your hands behind your back and stretch your shoulders. Also you need to keep yourself calm and relax throughout the day. Stretching will help but you need to slow get rid of all the stressful things goin on in your life. This will help you relax as well as help your muscles relax and stay relaxed and flexibile.

So to recap, if you feel your school is not adequate enough to give you the strength and endurance training that you need to achieve your goal then you must work on it more at home. Stretch as much as possible. Don't just focus on the splits but work on all types of flexibility including ankle and neck flexibility. Try to live a more relaxing lifestyle.

Hope some of this might be helpful,
Later,

jrlefty

Moe · Post by **Moe** » Jul 13, 2005 07:01

Yes. Wu Shu is very demanding and I have seen alot of people join and leave after the first or second session. I have been doing it for 2 years but i'm still in need to build up my strength on my legs. I think my upper body strength is good, there is this manouver in which I, from an almost full side split position can raise my legs upward slowly and reach a handstand position. A lot of people are amazed by it and i practice it to build arm and torso strength.

But you have motivated me to start working harder on my legs and strength im looking forward to doing so.

Thanks alot man!

trae · Post by **trae** » Jul 13, 2005 15:55

This is probably one of the most useful and insightful posts I've ever read. I wish I found this ten months ago when I started hapkido. Or, better yet, 10 years ago when I sat down and did nothing...

jrlefty wrote:It was not until recently that I realized that my school was very good at teaching technique but does not know the proper way to train athletic ability and in fact they have severly slowed my progress.
...
jrlefty

My instructor has been doing hapkido since he was little, so he never had problems starting out. I on the other hand, is jumping in after years of physical inactivity. While he has amazing technique, he doesn't have the knowledge about bringing someone conditioning level up which is unfortunate. I want to be a little more than a weekend warrior, but it's tough realizing that one needs to stop working on the flashy kicks and whatnot and go back to the drawing board (or the gym, whatever the case may be).

The results are encouraging though. Since I've joined my dojang I've gotten back in shape somewhat, learned tons of about health and fitness and damaged my body in ways I didn't expect. Now I'm stepping back and reconsidering my training approach though. My back is weak (and hurts during some exercises), my legs need more work. Anyway, to finish the rambling post up:
1. Strenght training & endurance leading to
2. flexibility leading to
3. perfect form

-d

mmeloon · Post by **mmeloon** » Jul 14, 2005 17:26

trae wrote:This is probably one of the most useful and insightful posts I've ever read. I wish I found this ten months ago when I started hapkido. Or, better yet, 10 years ago when I sat down and did nothing...

jrlefty wrote:It was not until recently that I realized that my school was very good at teaching technique but does not know the proper way to train athletic ability and in fact they have severly slowed my progress.
...
jrlefty

jrlefty's posts are always pretty damn good. But I agree that this one was particularly notable.

My instructor has been doing hapkido since he was little, so he never had problems starting out. I on the other hand, is jumping in after years of physical inactivity. While he has amazing technique, he doesn't have the knowledge about bringing someone conditioning level up which is unfortunate. I want to be a little more than a weekend warrior, but it's tough realizing that one needs to stop working on the flashy kicks and whatnot and go back to the drawing board (or the gym, whatever the case may be).

In one of Mr. Kurz's newsletters he points out that many martial arts instructors are not full-time instructors, coaches, or martial artists. During the day they are accountants, businessmen, scientists, etc. and have never had formal instruction in physical education. So it's not terribly surprising that they don't know how to help you improve your core athletic capabilities. In some sense, though, that's a little amazing when you think about it. Learning how to help someone improve their athletic abilities as easy as reading a few books (insert shameless plug for Science of Sports Training here) whereas learning how to help someone improve their technique requires years of hands-on expertise. At least that's the way I see it. Given the availability of information nowdays, it's amazing that most instructors aren't as up on sports science as they could be.

The results are encouraging though. Since I've joined my dojang I've gotten back in shape somewhat, learned tons of about health and fitness and damaged my body in ways I didn't expect. Now I'm stepping back and reconsidering my training approach though. My back is weak (and hurts during some exercises), my legs need more work. Anyway, to finish the rambling post up:
1. Strenght training & endurance leading to
2. flexibility leading to
3. perfect form
-d

Take heart in the fact that by stepping back and focusing on basics, you are advancing to a new level in your development as a martial artist. In the first few years of training in your art, there is an understandable tendency to focus on how much flashy stuff you can do and make it to black belt level as fast as possible. Once you get to the black belt level, that's usually the point at which people start to settle down a bit and realize that they need to get back to basics.

-Mark