The 500 sit-ups story

[Felix]

Hello there, it's been awhile already since I finally achieved my 500 sit-ups. I've been doing 500 sit-ups twice a week at the end of my workout. So a few workouts after my first session of 500 situps I started adding weight to my backextensions on the bench, add weighted squats, lunges, leg curls and gradually started with good mornings. Right now it looks like the following:

Squats 3x15 15 kg
Lunges 3x12 15 kg
Leg curls 3x30 5 kg (this I do in supersets with either squats or lunges)
Back extensions 3x15 25 kg
Good mornings 3x12 20 kg

This is not my exact workout, but just the weighted exercises I use. Normally I don't do squats and lunges in the same workout, but rather I do one of them in each of my strenght workout sessions, which I perform twice a week.

Now my little problem. Recently performing 500 situps has become somewhat troublesome... Maybe it has a little bit to do with boredom while performing them, but it seems my abs are getting fatigued earlier lately. I guess this has to do with the weighted exersices, which use some strenght of my abs and with me not running a lot lately. Or maybe are they just fatigued BECAUSE of situps? Well, in my last couple of workouts I only did 100 situps, just to be save. [As a side note, I haven't been performing crunches very often too, maybe this also has something to do with it...]

What I really like to hear from Mr. Kurz is how often do you perform 500 situps, like in every strenght workout session, in a seperate session or just like ocassionally for maintanance?

Anybody elses' experience is also very appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[jrlefty]

If 500 situps is your max then it is very unwise to do it every workout. You will overtrain very quickly if you continue in this fashion. I do not remember the exact percentage of it but you should not train more than 80 or 90 percent of your max.

[Felix]

Thanks for your reply jrlefty. I don't really think that 500 situps is really my max, it's just that I didn't try any more than that. It also didn't take much effort to complete them and I wouldn't feel really fatigued after I completed them.

[jrlefty]

Maybe then its because you do your sit-ups before lifting weights. I know that Kurz says to do situps before your strength workout but since you are doing them in the hundreds that might be considered an endurance workout. Try doing your 500 situps on another day, preferably the day after your strength workout and see what happens.

[Thomas Kurz]

I know that Kurz says to do situps before your strength workout but since you are doing them in the hundreds that might be considered an endurance workout.

Right. Sit-ups in short sets, for example, with additional weights, can be done before back exercises. This is because one needs "fresh" back muscles to stabilize the trunk. Crunches do not involve psoas so much, and the trunk moves less, so it is best to do them after the back exercises.

[Felix]

Thanks everybody. That's right, I did hundreds of sit-ups before back exercises with weights. So from now on I will just do some short sets of situps with weights before the back exercises and do the hundreds of situps maybe before some running, the day after my strength workout. Thanks!

Oh by the way, off topic, what does your signature say Kurz?

[Thomas Kurz]

Now my little problem. Recently performing 500 situps has become somewhat troublesome... Maybe it has a little bit to do with boredom while performing them, but it seems my abs are getting fatigued earlier lately. I guess this has to do with the weighted exersices, which use some strenght of my abs and with me not running a lot lately. Or maybe are they just fatigued BECAUSE of situps? Well, in my last couple of workouts I only did 100 situps, just to be save. [As a side note, I haven't been performing crunches very often too, maybe this also has something to do with it...]

What I really like to hear from Mr. Kurz is how often do you perform 500 situps, like in every strenght workout session, in a seperate session or just like ocassionally for maintanance?

If one does some medium length sets (100-200 reps) every day or every other day one may be able to maintain the abdomen's top muscular endurance by doing one long set once a week or even once every two weeks.

Now, to your problem with increasing difficulty of doing the same number of sit-ups, which you say, until recently was fairly easy. Things like that may happen when either progression of the exercise's difficulty (reps or resistance) is too fast or the exercise is done in a poor form. It is possible to make progress for a while and increase number of reps (or increase resistance) while exceeding your body's adaptability (simply, the ability to fully recover and rebuild itself). Some muscle groups, typically the main movers in a given exercise, may handle the increased stress well, but some others may be overstressed and at some point their weakness affects performance. If the form is poor, the effects of mechanical stress on all involved tissues accumulates, until you either tire sooner or get injured.

It is hard for me to believe that your problem is caused by your strength exercises (squats, back extensions, etc.) as the resistance you use is very low, especially considering the number of reps you do. All together your strength training load seems tiny. On the other hand, if that load feels heavy for you, then maybe your doing 500 sit-ups was premature.

Other possibilities: Maybe you do not eat enough high quality protein (red meat) so your abdomen muscles can't rebuild themselves soon enough?

Here is a copy of my advice from one of Q&A mailings on sit-ups with weights: With light weights (5-10 lb) you may try up to 100 reps. With heavier weights (15-25 lb) up to 30 reps. Do not move fast. Abdomen exercises with weights better be done slow. The reason is given in column 20. (A note for know-it-alls: Doing sit-ups with weights is different than catching and throwing a medicine ball while lying on your back or doing sit-ups.)

A tip on form for long sets of sit-ups without extra resistance: Make sure your movement down, the eccentric part of a sit-up, is done relaxed. Read about the soreness and eccentric movements in Stadion News ( http://www.stretching.info/freebies.html ).

Translation of my signature: For a wise one two (meaning: few) words suffice.

[Felix]

Thanks for the thorough explantation. I'm quite a layman as to strength training, so I really appreciate it. And since I'm a layman it seems I started out with very light weights. Actually I'm glad to hear that my weight training load is tiny, because it suggests I can put some more weights on them then, since they don't seem heavy. I read that I should start out with very little weights and increase from there, so it seems I exaggerated on that. But I do at 5 kg to my exercises every few workouts. So for example in 5-6 weeks my goodmorning will be 2/3 of my bodyweight (+/- 70 kg) if I continue the way I'm working out now. Is this too slow?

I don't eat red meat, maybe that had something to do with my problems or maybe it was indeed my form.

Today I did 500 sit-ups in my endurance workout however, which went really easy this time. So I'll do that 2 times a week from now on and the medium lenght sets every other day.

[Thomas Kurz]

I read that I should start out with very little weights and increase from there, so it seems I exaggerated on that. But I do ad 5 kg to my exercises every few workouts. So for example in 5-6 weeks my goodmorning will be 2/3 of my bodyweight (+/- 70 kg) if I continue the way I'm working out now. Is this too slow?

Whether it is too slow or too fast depends on how you feel during and after the lifts.

[mmeloon]

And since I'm a layman it seems I started out with very light weights. Actually I'm glad to hear that my weight training load is tiny, because it suggests I can put some more weights on them then, since they don't seem heavy. I read that I should start out with very little weights and increase from there, so it seems I exaggerated on that.

Books and people will tell you to start very easy because they are afraid of being sued if you injure yourself. The chances of that happening are infintesimal but in an age where anyone can sue anyone for any reason whatsoever, people like to cover their butt. You will definitely have to increase your weights if you want to get anywhere. Don't make huge jumps in weight but do increase the weights whenever possible.

I don't eat red meat, maybe that had something to do with my problems or maybe it was indeed my form.

Please read what is written in this thread.

-Mark

[Felix]

Thanks everybody, I tried something different today, although I still played it safe I guess. I didn't want to increase everything too abruptly, if I didn't so already.

This is how it looked today (warming up and cooling down not included):

Pullups 16x
Chinups 16x
[Here I did some wrist strengtening exercises, but I don't consider them to be worth mentioning]
Squats 1x15 30 kg 2x15 35 kg
Lunges 3x10 35 kg
Leg curls 1x20 10 kg 2x15 15 kg
Heel raised 2x12 25 kg
Leg raises 10x
Back-extension bench 3x15 25 kg
Good Mornings 1x12 dry, 2x10 40 kg, 2x10 35 kg
Deadlifts 3x12 20 kg (empty bar, but the bar itself weighs 20 kg)

It seemed reasonable, but I did 'feel' more this time. No problems during the exercises and after (up till now that is). Tommorow or the day after that I guess I'll know for sure... if I get muscle soreness or not.

[Felix]

Well a day has passed and I can't really complain about any soreness. The only exercise that left me a bit sore are undoutadly the lunges, since I only have a slight soreness in my buttocks. But maybe this thread is going a bit of topic. Anyhow thanks everybody.

[Thomas Kurz]

What I really like to hear from Mr. Kurz is how often do you perform 500 situps, like in every strenght workout session, in a seperate session or just like ocassionally for maintanance?

Anybody elses' experience is also very appreciated.

I forgot to answer this part of your question in my last post, so here is my answer: I would not do long, tiring sets of sit-ups in the same workout with heavy lower back work. For example, I would not do long sets of sit-up on the same day I do deadlifts. Exhausting abs right before deadlifts would make deadlifting dangerous and doing many sit-ups or sit-ups with resistance after the deadlifts can mess up the lower back. Long sets of sit-ups can be done on the day before deadlifts and such, provided you recover overnight well enough to do your deadlifts well. Other than that, just do them when you feel like it, and as often as it takes for you to either increase or maintain your strength and strength-endurance.

[Felix]

Thank you very much.