Combining 20 reps squat program with martial arts

[Haakon_Myrseth]

Recently, I purchased a book called Super Squats by Randall Strossen. After having read Thomas Kurz's article about Squats and martial arts, I believe mr Kurz has read this book. I want to try this 20rep squat program as it is called, but there is a problem. Rest is of vital importance if this program should work, and I still want to train taekwondo 2-3 times a week. It is important that I go to these martial arts classes, because I am planning to graduate to first dan this summer. Is it possible to combine this 20rep squat routine with my martial arts classes? If so, how?

[Thomas Kurz]

It is possible to combine working on maximal strength or mass with working on some other abilities or skills. You will need to pay attention to your body's signals to make sure your other work does not interfere with the recovery required by the strength work.

It would be best if you could work on your strength (the 20 rep squat program) on days when you do not feel too fatigued from your taekwondo practice and when you know that you will have time to recover from your strength work before your next taekwondo workout. If this is impossible because of the schedule of your taekwondo practice, then you may try doing your strength work together with your practice.

As you should know from “Science of Sports Training,” your work on maximal strength is most effective if done right after the warm-up and if the remainder of the workout does not include endurance work--at least not for the muscles stressed in your strength exercises. Doing strength work at the end of a fatiguing workout for other abilities (say, taekwondo practice) also reduces effectiveness of strength exercises. Reduced effectiveness does not mean that your strength will not increase--just that it will not increase as much as it could otherwise. So you can try either of these two approaches (strength right after warm-up and then your taekwondo practice or first the practice and then your strength exercises) and see if the resulting increase of strength and mass satisfies you and if such combinations are healthy for you (see “Science of Sports Training” for interpretation of your body's signs).

Subjects such as place of strength exercises in a workout, in weekly, monthly and longer periods, as well as single-task workouts versus multitask workouts, are all covered in “Science of Sports Training.”

[mmeloon]

Hi Haakon:

I just finished up a cycle where I used a modified version of the Super Squats routine (something inbetween the "normal" and "abbreviated" routine he gives) and I also continued my tae kwon do during this cycle. I could go on and on about my experiences but I'll try to make this brief.

As Kurz says, trying to figure out how to organize the TKD and weights workouts so they don't interfere with each other is very important. I won't go into that since it's already covered in SoST. I'll focus on my experiences with the Super Squats routine itself. I did gain a signficant amount of strength on the program (not just squats, my bench press went up considerably).

First, as you already know from reading the book the "30 lbs of muscle in 6 weeks" is a reference to when he used the approach in his teens to great success. Because you will be combining the weights with TKD, you will definitely need to reduce your expectations. The book is very motivational but you'll need to temper some of that with common sense. I believe that quotes from the book such as "squat so hard your teeth hurt!" and "if you aren't gaining 2 lbs a week, you're doing something wrong" are really dangerous and I'm a little disappointed that stuff is in there. It gives people the wrong ideas.

His advice on downing 4000+ calories a day (including a half gallon of milk) is crazy. You'll need to determine the right caloric level. And make sure it's all wholesome food. I argue that if you're eating 4000+ calories a day, it can't all be nutrient-dense stuff.

You will quickly find that the real key to this program is willpower. The stuff about "take a weight you can do 10 reps with -- then do 20!" sounds insane but, believe it or not, you CAN do it. But it will be very tough on your body and mind. It will take you several weeks to build up the right mindset to do even one set of that. I swear I would stand in front of the squat rack for several minutes trying to psyche myself up for that one set. A friend of mine gave up on a 20-rep squat program because he found himself constantly making excuses for avoiding them. Yes, the set really is that difficult. My friend and I aren't mental wimps.

The other thing that is difficult about the program is how exhausting that one set of 20 squats is, especially if you are going down until the tops of your legs are parallel. Make sure that perfect squat form is second-nature to you before embarking on this program. I found the most difficult part was remembering to keep upright with my chest held high in between reps! I had good form during the actual reps but when you're gasping for air between reps it's way too easy to use that as a "break" and stand with a rounded back. Make sure you don't do that! It's not a "break" -- treat it as seriously as the reps themselves!

For the first month or so I was able to do two of those full-body workouts a week but after awhile it was just too much when combined with 2 TKD workouts as well. I backed off a bit and made one weights workout an 80% level one. That helped prevent overtraining. The author also suggests increasing the weight by 5 or 10 pounds each workout. I'd say 5 is the largest increment you better try. Anything more than that and you risk losing some of your form because of the sudden increase in weight. Personally, I think using smaller increments than 5 would be prudent. I already explained how I make my own 1.5 lb weights in another thread.

I guess I wrote more than I thought. If you have more questions about my experience with Super Squats, go ahead and ask here. I guess I'm glad that I did the program but I'm not sure when I'll do it again (not until the fall at the very earliest). It will most definitely test your willpower and you will have to be very careful to make sure you aren't overtraining. Listen to your body. Get plenty of food but not too much. Don't even think about doing something more in addition to weights and TKD.

Good luck,
-Mark

[mmeloon]

Haakon,

UKFightFreak states that he has done the Super Squats routine and had good success with it as well. Check out this thread for more.

-Mark

[Haakon_Myrseth]

I'm glad that so many have experience with this program, and I have a couple of more questions concerning the 20 reps squat program.
I have been doing this program for about one week, doing only the squats. I had one week vacation from school and I thought it would be a good idea to do the program as I didn't do anything else at the time, only sleeping a lot and eating all day long. Before I began the 20 reps squat program, I used to do 3 sets of 10reps with 60kg. After one week with the 20 reps squat program I did 20 reps with 70kg the last workout and have gained about 1-2lbs. Still, I do not get nervous or afraid before I get under bar on the squat rack, only a little. And when I'm done with all of the 20 reps, I am not that tired as most of you describe you are, but close. Do I squat with enough weights? or is it normal?
My recent workout, I actually added 10pounds to the squat. The 10 last reps were quite hard, and I leaned a lot forward and almost strained my back. The book says I should do parallell squats, but thomas kurz says that one should go all the way down in a squat, which I did. Do you have any tips on what I should do?
I was wondering at what rate I should perform the squats? I suppose a 2-0-2 rate is good, but I'm not sure if I'm actually doing that when the reps get hard, then I think I may be doing the squats in a 1-0-1 rate.

[mmeloon]

I'm glad that so many have experience with this program, and I have a couple of more questions concerning the 20 reps squat program.
I have been doing this program for about one week, doing only the squats. I had one week vacation from school and I thought it would be a good idea to do the program as I didn't do anything else at the time, only sleeping a lot and eating all day long. Before I began the 20 reps squat program, I used to do 3 sets of 10reps with 60kg. After one week with the 20 reps squat program I did 20 reps with 70kg the last workout and have gained about 1-2lbs. Still, I do not get nervous or afraid before I get under bar on the squat rack, only a little. And when I'm done with all of the 20 reps, I am not that tired as most of you describe you are, but close. Do I squat with enough weights? or is it normal?

You did say that you've only been doing this for a week so I'm going to guess that you're still in the "building up" phase and have yet to hit the real challenging weights for you. The psychological battle I described really only sets in after several weeks and you are squatting heavy weights. I would suggest keeping building up the weights every workout. In a few weeks you'll begin to experience the difficulties I mentioned. My interpretation of "take a weight you can do 10 reps with -- then do 20" was to take a weight that I had difficulty doing 10 reps with. Not a weight that I could comfortably do for 10. To put it another way, when I did the very first rep of the set I always thought to myself "No way. There's no way I'm going to do 20 of these. I'll just shoot for 15." because it felt too heavy. But once I got to 15 I just told myself "One more." again and again until I managed to get all 20.

My recent workout, I actually added 10pounds to the squat. The 10 last reps were quite hard, and I leaned a lot forward and almost strained my back. The book says I should do parallell squats, but thomas kurz says that one should go all the way down in a squat, which I did. Do you have any tips on what I should do?

See, this is why I think Strossen's recommendation of adding 10 lbs to the bar each workout is dangerous. Even if it's within your ability, the jump of that much weight can throw off your form. Be careful of your back! If that gets injured, your experiement in Super Squats will be over before it starts and you'll have to find a sports medicine doc or an applied kinesologist. If you're going to push yourself hard in 20 rep squats you've got to have perfect form. It's too easy to let things slide when you get exhausted.

As far as the full ("butt-to-heels") vs half ("tops of thighs parallel to floor") squat issue, I've always done half squats just out of practice. I will probably try a cycle of full squats sometime in the near future but because I was used to half-squatting I didn't want the stress of changing my squat form compounding the stress of 20 rep squats. I'm a believer in changing one thing at a time and giving your body a chance to adjust.

I was wondering at what rate I should perform the squats? I suppose a 2-0-2 rate is good, but I'm not sure if I'm actually doing that when the reps get hard, then I think I may be doing the squats in a 1-0-1 rate.

I'm not sure exactly what notation you are using there. Is it eccentric-pause-concentric? Anyhow, my intention upon beginning the Super Squats routine was to do 3 sec eccentric, no pause, 3 sec concentric just like I do with all my other exercises. I believe that's a controlled pace for me. SoST points out that doing fast squats will improve explosive power but, as I said before, I try to concentrate on what thing at a time and my focus during the Super Squats routine was basic strength.

As you point out, it becomes difficult to maintain a fixed rep cadence when things get tough and I quickly realized I had to give up my 3/3 timing. My opinion is to go slow enough on the eccentric phase that you control the weight and maintain good form. "Control the weight" means that at any point in the motion you could stop and hold the weight there. As far as concentric phase, you can probably explode out of the bottom position and go at whatever speed you want. But in the second 10 reps you just won't be able to go that fast just because you're so tired.

-Mark

[Guest]

When I say 2-0-2 rate. It means that one use 2 seconds while going down in a squat, and 2 seconds while going up.
By the way, I have some other question figured out. I haven't been doing the whole program, only the squats. But now I'm gonna include the bench press, and bent over row.
1. Should I use a overhand grip on the barbell while performing the bent over row?
2. when doing for example bench press for two sets, should I use the same weight for both of the sets? And how long should the rest breaks be between the sets? I don't see that Randall Strossen mentions that in the book.
3. Should I do parallell squats instead of the deep squats, just for the safety of my back?

[Haakon_Myrseth]

I forgot to sign in before I wrote that message, sorry about that.

[mmeloon]

When I say 2-0-2 rate. It means that one use 2 seconds while going down in a squat, and 2 seconds while going up.
By the way, I have some other question figured out. I haven't been doing the whole program, only the squats. But now I'm gonna include the bench press, and bent over row.
1. Should I use a overhand grip on the barbell while performing the bent over row?
2. when doing for example bench press for two sets, should I use the same weight for both of the sets? And how long should the rest breaks be between the sets? I don't see that Randall Strossen mentions that in the book.
3. Should I do parallell squats instead of the deep squats, just for the safety of my back?

I can only tell you what I did and what my opinions are. I'm not claiming to be some kind of expert on this stuff. That having been said, I would encourage you to add some other exercises besides just the squat. Whether you want to do the full routine that he lists or the abbreviated one is up to you.

1. I'm sure you can find people who vehemently argue that an underhand grip is superior. Then you'l find others who argue the opposite. My personal feeling is that stuff like this is really pretty irrelevant in the whole scope of things. One thing that I would like to point out, however, is that you should be careful that the rows don't tire out your back prior to your 20-rep squats. Of course, someone could always argue that the squats will tire your back out for the rows. You may want to consider substituting lat pulls for rows or do rows on a machine that supports your torso. I guess it depends on how strong you think your back is and how much faith you have in your ability to maintain strict form when you're exhausted.

2. What I did (and, again, I'm not saying this is optimal) is to try to use the same weight for both my work sets of bench. So I'd do a warmup set with a moderate weight and then two sets with a heavier weight. As far as rest between sets, you're right that Strossen doesn't mention stuff like this. Like I alluded to earlier, I think there are a lot of details missing from this book. Since I was working out with a partner and during my lunch hour my between-set rests weren't very long. I don't remember what SoST says about inter-set rest periods. I'm sure it depends on what your primary goal is (hypertrophy, strength, speed-strength, endurance-strength, etc.).

3. Well, again, I chose to stick with what was familiar because I didn't want to worry about trying to check my form during that exhausting set. For me that was half-squats. On the other hand, if you always do what is familiar you'll never try anything new. To my knowledge full squats will probably not put any new stresses on your back.

-Mark

[Kit]

Scientists in the Departments of Anatomy and Kinesiology at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden have recently determined exactly what happens to the legs during squatting sessions. Eight burly young national class Olympic weightlifters took part in the research. Average body weight was 180 pounds, mean age was 19, and typical one repetition maximum (1RM) during squatting exercise was about 230 pounds.

Each squatting exertion was a "high bar” squat, with the weight bar centered across the shoulders just below the seventh cervical vertebra (the first knob one feels when passing the hand down the back surface of the neck). For every squat, the actual weight used was 65% of an athlete's one repetition maximum.

The subjects tried four different knee flexion angles while squatting:

knees flexed to just 45 degrees
knees flexed to 90 degrees

knees flexed more amply so that the back surfaces of the thighs were actually parallel to the floor

Knees flexed fully (the deepest possible squat).
The first two squats, 45 and 90 degrees, are actually just partial squats with athletes remaining in a semi standing position and the buttocks only slightly lowered toward the floor.

Video taping and electromyography were used to determine joint forces and muscle activity. As it turned out, the 45 and 90 degree squats did a poor job of activating the quads and hamstrings, compared to the parallel and deep squats. However, the former two squats also produced fairly low forces at the knee and hip joints, so the 45 and 90-degree squats are probably excellent exercises for athletes who are attempting carefully to recover from leg injuries.

Surprisingly, there was no difference in muscular activity between the parallel and deep squats, even though coaches tend to recommend the latter. The total times required to perform parallel and deep squats were also similar, so neither exercise provides more total work for the leg muscles per training session.

Although the parallel and deep squats produce equivalent amounts of muscle activation, the parallel exercise is better for athletes who have suffered from knee problems, since it produces less strain on the knees. Athletes with hip problems should probably rely on 90 degree squats, since both parallel and deep squats upgrade hip loading forces significantly.

[Guest]

I was reading Tom Kurz's suggestion on how to organise the Supersquats program and martial arts. If you read the book fully you will see that Randall Strossen suggests training with weights 3 times per week. He suggests that you only do the squat twice a week. Kurz suggests either strength training immediately after warm up, or before your taekwondo class. If you are following the 20 rep program properly you would not be able to practice taekwondo afterwards. You should be sufficiently exhausted that you can barely walk after racking the bar. I strength train 2-3 times per week and only include the squats once per week. As taekwondo is mainly kicking, I simlpy go to classes that are furthest away from the day I intend to squat. If you are doing 20 rep squats twice a week and attending TKD twice a week you may be overtraining slightly. If you feel ok, howerver stick with it

[mmeloon]

I was reading Tom Kurz's suggestion on how to organise the Supersquats program and martial arts. If you read the book fully you will see that Randall Strossen suggests training with weights 3 times per week. He suggests that you only do the squat twice a week. Kurz suggests either strength training immediately after warm up, or before your taekwondo class. If you are following the 20 rep program properly you would not be able to practice taekwondo afterwards. You should be sufficiently exhausted that you can barely walk after racking the bar. I strength train 2-3 times per week and only include the squats once per week. As taekwondo is mainly kicking, I simlpy go to classes that are furthest away from the day I intend to squat. If you are doing 20 rep squats twice a week and attending TKD twice a week you may be overtraining slightly. If you feel ok, howerver stick with it

It's important to keep in mind that Strossen is writing the book under the assumption that the only activity you are doing are those weights workouts. So if you are doing TKD (which, as you pointed out, is exhausting for the legs) in addition you will most definitely have to modify whatever guidelines Strossen gives in his book. As I wrote above, I continued to squat twice a week but one of those workouts was an 80% one because I simply couldn't handle two full-intensity weights workouts combined with two TKD workouts each week.

Science of Sports Training goes into detail on how to diagnose overtraining and there is an entire section devoted to means of speeding recovery such as massage, alternating-temperature-showers, and baths. I made sure to do the shower and bath things religiously to try to enable me to continue my TKD workouts along with 20-rep squatting.

-Mark

P.S.: For those who are interested in heavy-duty squat routines, I've been told that John McCallum's book The Complete Keys to Progress
has a very good discussion on 20 rep "breathing" squats. I do not have this book but I intend to purchase it soon.

[Haakon_Myrseth]

I am happy to report that I've added about 6 pounds to my body weight and I have gone from squatting 60kg for 12 reps to 85kg for 20reps and still rapidly increasing the weights in squats.
I was wondering if you have any advice to prevent leaning to much forward? I have a tendency to do that

[mmeloon]

I am happy to report that I've added about 6 pounds to my body weight and I have gone from squatting 60kg for 12 reps to 85kg for 20reps and still rapidly increasing the weights in squats.
I was wondering if you have any advice to prevent leaning to much forward? I have a tendency to do that

Great work, Haakon! I'm glad to hear that it's working well for you.

What I tried to do was to concentrate on keeping the weight on the back half of my foot. Try to feel the pressure on your heel and your toes should be so unloaded that you could wiggle them in your shoe! Obviously, you don't actually wiggle your toes; I'm just saying that if you wanted to you could because all the weight is on the back half of your foot.

Make sure to break that habit of leaning too far forward. It can put a lot of stress on your back. Even if you have to use the same weight one week as you did the previous (i.e., not increase weight for that week) to consolidate and concentrate on your form. A temporary (one-week) break will help you in the long term!

Once again, great work!

-Mark

[b8rtm8nn]

I am happy to report that I've added about 6 pounds to my body weight and I have gone from squatting 60kg for 12 reps to 85kg for 20reps and still rapidly increasing the weights in squats.
I was wondering if you have any advice to prevent leaning to much forward? I have a tendency to do that

Hello Haakon,

Incorporating stiff legged deadlifts after my squats improved my form (leaning) and load tremendously. I had been squatting for several years with mediocre form and weight before adding this exercise and afterwards, my ability jumped so that I could squat double my weight with great form (it received compliments from strangers, so it had to be good