Taekwon Do Issue

[paul-scotland-uk]

Taekwon Do Issue

[cailifo]

Mr. Kurz feels strongly about this, which is where you probably get your negative feelings toward it as well. I have also studied the method explained by Kurz and have understood the science of "why" and "why not" with regards to certain types or sequences of stretching.

However, having spent time studying martial arts full-time in China I've seen them train 6+ hours per day, 6 days per week. They would run up the mountain steps every morning as a warm-up then immediately following do static stretches including very intense splits training, sometimes using partners- all of which they do hard ballistic bouncing to increase the stretch. After that they'd get up and do hard dynamic leg swings/kicks. Then they would go into the rest of their workout and never really have a "cool-down".

But... they were all extremely strong and flexible. Front splits, side splits, holding a completely vertical sidekick, etc.. Scarily powerful kicks on the bags. Rather impressive I have to say. In fact, more flexible and stronger than anything I've seen from Kurz. Some had only 2 or 3 years experience and were young children but they already reached such incredible levels. One kid said about a month or so and you'll get used to it. Then nothing can hurt your legs, as strong as they are. And they were proof.

So, basically, I don't know what to think of it. It seems to work wonders for them! But perhaps for us ordinary folk who don't have the time and opportunity to train like that, it would only do us harm. But the stretching scientifically method- while it may work, I think it also scares people more than need be. The one thing I like that Kurz says is to listen to your own body and know your limits- when you can push it and when you should come off it.

[cailifo]

By the way, I wish someone would go over there and run some studies on their bodies! They are real animals.

[paul-scotland-uk]

Yeah .. But is that not the whole point of Mr Kurz's method in that you don't need to train 6hours+ a day! Why train 6hours+ 6 days a week when it's said that to gain this level of flexibility takes only 20mins of strength training and stretching to achieve the same results a few times a week, and with rational training can be achieved in a couple of months? If the kids you say were only doing it with a couple of years experience, does this not tell you that the training may be somewhat irational in comparison, especially if they're kids!? .. Are kids not naturally more pliable? ..

You also mentioned "then immediately following do static stretches including very intense splits training". Should it really be intense? I was of the understanding that it should be comfortable enough if done correctly? .. I never seen Thomas Kurz showing any strain whilst doing any split and at no point does it look intense!

Mr Kurz states clearly in his book that there are indeed athletes who can show greater levels of flexibility than what he shows in his book, but he also states that he can do everything he teaches in the book!

Mr Kurz is not the only one that disagrees with static stretching at the warm up stage. I came came across this info elswhere on the internet.

I Think I have a good enough grasp on the "whys" and "why not" also but it still seems a widely debatable subject!

It seems that you really need to pick a method and see where it takes you!

Paul.

[cailifo]

Yeah .. But is that not the whole point of Mr Kurz's method in that you don't need to train 6hours+ a day! Why train 6hours+ 6 days a week when it's said that to gain this level of flexibility takes only 20mins of strength training and stretching to achieve the same results a few times a week, and with rational training can be achieved in a couple of months? If the kids you say were only doing it with a couple of years experience, does this not tell you that the training may be somewhat irational in comparison, especially if they're kids!? .. Are kids not naturally more pliable? ..

You misunderstood. It's a martial arts school, not a flexibility school. They train 6+ hours a day in martial arts. Flexibility training is part of that but obviously not the whole 6+ hours. However, training that much everyday including intense cardio and strength training does not burn them out. They're extremely strong and can do it everyday all day long. Even on their day off they have an evening class.

What I'm saying about the kids is they trained only for a few years and had already reached peak performance, higher than the level of Mr. Kurz after all his years. Of course they reached full splits and all much sooner than that! I'm just talking about the amount of time they had been at the school when I met them.

You also mentioned "then immediately following do static stretches including very intense splits training". Should it really be intense? I was of the understanding that it should be comfortable enough if done correctly? .. I never seen Thomas Kurz showing any strain whilst doing any split and at no point does it look intense!

They do oversplits training. Like doing a front split and then putting their foot up on a brick or something. Then their teacher pushes their head down to their toes or bends them backward. Pretty intense. But they are strong enough to where they hop up from that and go straight into hard leg swings. And they do this everyday.

Mr Kurz is not the only one that disagrees with static stretching at the warm up stage. I came came across this info elswhere on the internet.

I know, but that's all Western stuff. What I'm saying is that these people in China train like crazy and are way beyond the level of these Western guys who just make it to the full splits. This guys and kids go way beyond that. And they train intense endurance and strength on the same day, everyday. Starting their mornings out with running up the mountain steps, crawling down and hopping back up. They don't get so fatigued and their improvements aren't hurt by "overtraining" or "improper sequence".

I think the Western method is kinda weak. If all these people can train like that and do it well over in Asia, why do Westerners have to be such weaklings about it? Reading Kurz method and comparing it to the type of training they do over there just makes Kurz and other Westerners sound scared of their own muscles.

They should do some tests on these people over there and learn more about sports training from the East.

[agd7235]

I don't think you'll find Mr. Kurz saying that it isn't possible for children to do splits, merely that such static stretches aren't advisable.

Let's see how those children fare once they reach adulthood.

You can't cheat nature.

[tyciol]

The monks train hard and persevere. It is possible to progress even with that dangerous sort of training. Since the monks generally start young, they probably have more pliable muscles which can recover better even if they do tear them from bouncing and stuff. They also get plenty of sleep and spend time meditating, and have people who can massage out scar tissue and stuff. They make it their life.

I don't know much about them, maybe they incorporate other methods of stretching too. Maybe they have more control over ballistic stretching than most people and use it to hypertroph their muscles rather than injure them?

[agd7235]

I certianly do not doubt the dedication and work ethics of the monks.

But the monks also are known for screening candidate childrem to train. It's known that they examine certain characteristics, such as the length of the tendons in the back of the knee. The same sort of practices were done in the acrobat camps in Mongolia and even - to an extent - the Bullshoi Ballet in Russia. There are almost always genetic factors that allow certain athletic characteristics to be developed to an exceptional degree in children. There's no denying that. It's also been postulated that there are certain subtle differences in muscle fascia composition that allow people from the Far East and some parts of South America to develop a generally higher level of flexibility in certain joints than is possible in populations elsewhere.

Would I expect that the Shaolin Monks have the expertise and the means to determine which children have the most potential to pracitce their craft? I would.

Would I expect that the Shaolin Monks have the expertise and the means to determine which form of stretching delivers the most benefit? I would not.

I can tell you that one of my neighbors practiced San da for 15 years as part of a Chinese state-run program and was even a member of a Zhejang province demo team for several years. Ballistic stretching was not part of their training curriculum.

When trying to assess the effective of a technique, I always look to its application in competition. And I just don't hear of ballistic stretches being used in track & field, WTF Taekwondo, or MMA these days.

[tyciol]

Earlier here it was mentioned about western men being 'just' able to attain side (180) splits. That seemed like a jab aimed at Kurz or something. Considering the level of comfort he's in when he does them, and how he can do them in very little time, and how he's been able to do this for years (decades?) I don't think 'just' really describes it. Just looking to the upper left now, at the suspended side splits with the woman sitting on the guy's leg (who is that in the picture?) it is obvious that the intent here is not 'just' splits, but rather, incredible strength in this stretched position. This is the type of thing that pro wrestler Rob Van Damme does with his 'van damme' lift, I think he and Kurz might possibly get along well, heh.

Oversplits looks cool, and it's nice to have a flexibility reserve, but personally, much as I'd like both worlds, to me, being able to suspend 150% of your bodyweight in 180 splits, that seems to me a more valuable accomplishment than to have 190-200 oversplits with your legs flat and not suspended, as he's describing these monks doing.

I remember from reading Tsatsouline's stretching book that he only maintains even 180 just because he thinks he has to do demonstrate the techniques, but that he actually doesn't find them useful.

There's also a reference to Bill Superfoot Wallace attaining oversplits, and then stopping and only training at 180 because going beyond that seemed unnecessary and made him lose his 'snap'. Overcoming the stretch reflex to gain flexibility makes sense when you increase the range of your kicks, but oversplits do not increase the range of kicks. When you kick, you plant (or leap with) a grounded leg and move the kicking leg forward. They move apart, adding the range of your splits to the origin of your base leg (which might be in motion if it is a jump kick). When you go beyond 180 into oversplits, you don't gain range, you begin to lose it. It ceases to be a direct attack and would be something you'd use for 'trick' attacks, like Chloe Bruce's scorpion attacks or whatever. They're impressive, surprising, scarey, etc. but don't have any range advantages.

Maybe Kurz could get oversplits if he wanted to, probably nobody has asked him. That's more a contortionist's thing, or something that you do privately to build a flexibility reserve to make 180 ones seem more comfortable. It's not something that gets requested to be seen a lot since there aren't any kicks designed to take advantage of flexibility over 180 in traditional martial arts, not that I'm aware of anyway. Carrying a brick around with you to prop your foot on is kind of bothersome anyway.