relaxed stretches at the beginning of a workout?

[hanes]

Hi!

I am very happy about the good results I achieved with your brilliant book "stretching scientifically", I just find it very difficult to combine your streching programm with the workout in my martial art club (and I guess there must be lots of other people here who might have the same problem).
As maybe 90% of all karate schools in my school we also start with relaxed static streches at the beginning of the lesson. As far I reat in your book that this is not effective, I now always do leg raises for my own before that and do isometrics about 4 times a week at the end of the training, as you adviced. I just can t skip the relexed streches, because they are part of the training.
I am just wondering, if it is really that bad to do relaxed streches after the leg raises and before the kicking and isometrics? If so, WHY? Because in your book you also mention, that you can do relaxed streches whenever you feel like it, because they don t cause any tired muscles.

Thanks a lot for an answer!

[Maxim]

Hi
I know what you are talking about; I did muay thai for a couple of years and they did loads of static stretching before practise too. There isn't really a nice way to say this so here goes: It's because of ignorance.

Maybe you can explain it to the instructor(don't make a fool out of him).
Somewhere in the free column on this site your question about 'why' is answered. I don't know it for sure anymore, I think it was because it relaxes the muscles(less power) and has a bad effect on coordination.

Look for the column.
Good night(I'm in europe)

[dragon]

I am just wondering, if it is really that bad to do relaxed streches after the leg raises and before the kicking and isometrics? If so, WHY? Because in your book you also mention, that you can do relaxed streches whenever you feel like it, because they don t cause any tired muscles.

The Kurz material is aimed at developing maximum flexibility/performance in the most efficient way.

Never do static stretches before dynamic stretches, kicking, or any other dynamic movements. For several seconds or even minutes following any type of static stretch, you cannot display your top agility or maximal speed because your muscles are less responsive to stimulation—your coordination is off. Static stretches reduce the force production of the stretched muscles.(Kurz 1994).

Many martial artists are merely teaching what their instructors taught them.Martial artists in the east start from a very early age(in the Shaolin monastary,about 4 or 5).Extreme flexibility techniques from this young age will have a permanent effect on ligaments amongst other things.
I would assume that an adult with permanently elongated liagaments from childhood would be able to perform kicks with no warm up(dynamic or relaxed) if they chose to.(like a contortionist can perform at will).
This may be why they still perform stretching in the same way they did as children with no recognition of potential injury through improper warm up.

That's just my theory though.....

Dragon

[jrlefty]

I just can t skip the relexed streches, because they are part of the training.

I have the same problem in my school. Just keep doing what your doing with leg raises before class and when it comes time for the class to do relax stretches, don't stretch anywhere close to your maximum flexibility. My flexibility is very good but when we first stretch before classes my flexibility resembles those of the white belts. I also do CONTROLLED bouncing with each stretch to try and keep my energy up until we finally get into basic punches and kicks.

If you listen to your body you might start to feel the difference when you do static relax stretches before a workout or not. I know if I stretched to my max before a workout and started kicking my legs would be a bit loser but I would get this weird stretch in my hamstrings that I do not feel when I leave out static stretches before a workout.

[hanes]

Hi everybody!

Thanks for your feedback!

As you mentioned, static streching at the beginning of the workout will have a bad effect on ones coordination.
But what if you do it AFTER the leg raises and BEFORE my Karate training (eventually followed by isometrics), as I (and Jrlefty, too) do it now?
What exactly is that bad effect on my coordination in this case? Does it mean, it might just have a bad effect on my kicks during my training (because I never realized one? Actually I realized I can kick higher and faster with dynamic AND static streching before the training than just dynamic streching). Or will it also have a bad effect on my all-in-all flexibility with or without warm-up?That is actually the question I still did not understand in Mr. Kurzes book...


Concerning your theorie about eastern martial artistss - you could be right

Hanes


@Maxim: Hey, you re from Europe? Me, too. Where are you from?

[dragon]

If you had performed the early morning stretches,that should regulate your current flexibility levels for the rest of the day.

This means you CAN display full flexibility if needed(perhaps if you choose to throw a kick in a self defence situation or you are in the military when multiple warm up sessions would be too time consuming).
Mr.Kurz still recommends you perform the dynamic stretches again before a workout.

If you start your martial arts training in the evening with dynamic stretching followed by static stretching,you may well be able to display full flexibility in your kicks.However,there's more to kicking than height.I have known martial artists to injure themselves kicking the thigh.There are runners who have pulled muscles pushing off from the starting blocks.Being well stretched doesn't mean you are warmed up.

To perform isometrics will tire you.To perform relaxed stretches,as the name implies,will relax you.Both scenarios aren't desirable if you're about to off load a full force kick.

Dragon

[jrlefty]

If you listen to your body you might start to feel the difference when you do static relax stretches before a workout or not. I know if I stretched to my max before a workout and started kicking my legs would be a bit loser but I would get this weird stretch in my hamstrings that I do not feel when I leave out static stretches before a workout.

I forgot to mention that I have the (surprisinly none rare) experience of pulling my hamstring muscle from training in class. I actually tore both of my hamstrings, one right after the other in a two year period it seemed and slowly had to rehabilitate each of them. Ever since then I have had worked my hardest to learn the proper way of stretching and training. I have no scientific proof of this but I feel that the discomfort that I get when kicking after doing relaxed stretches are warning from the scars of the last time I tore my muscle because its in the exact same spot.

I think Kurz makes it very clear in his theory section of his book that static relax stretching is best performed when the body is totally relaxed and that performing dynamic movements like puches or kicks right after increases your chances of an injury because you are going from one extreme to another. In relax stretching you hold a position for at least a minute at a time relaxing your entire body and not adding any bodyweight to the stretched muscles. In a fighting or sparing situation your body should be always moving and your muscles are relaxed as can be but should be ready to explode at any moment. I wouldn't recommend exploding out of a relax stretch.

Some might argue (like Pavel) that doing so many stretches before a class is negatively effecting your self defense practice because your teaching your body to utilize your techniques only after you stretch. Think about it, you are training your body to perform kicks and punches only after you have relaxed your entire body through relax stretching. You said it yourself that your kicks are higher and faster after relaxed stretching so how can you call upon that level of flexibility in a real situation where there is no time to relax stretch.

Also listen, Kurz gives you the order to perform each type of stretch from his years of training and experience that he says will greatly reduce your chance of injury and maximize your chances of gaining flexibility and he can actually perform the splits. Now he does not say his way is the only way. If you feel your school has a better stretching program then go for it. Look around at the people who have trained in your school since in the beginning and see if there level of flexibility is good. Are there students in your school who keep getting injured? What about your teachers flexibilty? My teacher can perform a split and he never followed kurz's method but he did injure his back a few years ago while training and it has severely limited his kicking ability for the rest of his life. I certainly do not want to follow in my teachers footsteps in that direction. Flexibility at the cost of increasing your chances of getting injured is not the way for me.

I say its good you ask these questions and keep doing more research, there (usually) is no stupid question.

later,

lefty